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Topic ClosedCapitalism: A Poll Story
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Poll Question: should capitalism be continued indefinitely?
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10 [34.48%]
8 [27.59%]
11 [37.93%]
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2010 at 05:17
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

It carries within itself the seed of its own destruction...


And Socialism doesn't?Wink

And I hardly consider the US system "brutal".  There is lots of social spending, even if less than some other countries commit. 
That is very true, One thing I found really amazing about people in the USA, the extent at which they contribute in some form or other to their communities. Even in hard times there was a quiet reinforcement for community supportClap
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2010 at 05:19
During my life (and I'm not that old), I witnessed three systems. People were always complaining.
Percussion, sir!
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2010 at 05:57
Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

During my life (and I'm not that old), I witnessed three systems. People were always complaining.



Political Post of the Year, right here.  Frame it for future reference. Clap

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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 01:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I believe in Social Democracy
I don't feel like explaining but it is capitalism, with some aspects of socialism.


Despite everything I used to want to think, capitalism is the best system....however, it is clearly flawed. Social Democracy is the best of both worlds. Indeed, the Nordic countries score among the top in regards of ease of doing business, economic freedom, GDP per capita, purchasing power and all that jazz, but also are the best in terms of income equality and have great social services.

The best of capitalism and socialism.

tl;dr version

Capitalism, (so number one) but it needs reform, and eventually move to a social democracy


Clap
OMG! I agree with both of you. Shocked


Thanks for the clappies, I know its kinda sad but  I really did appreciate it Embarrassed  And one of the higher ups agrees with me! That is a surprise!

And to get quasi back on track, statistics prove it, (well enough for me) the Nordic countries show that social democracy CAN exist, and work quite well.
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 02:06
As a person, who saw what the nightmare is Socialism in reality, I absolutely believe that there are no other way ,but capitalism only.

It's often funny ( and sometimes pity) to see people,supporting socialism idea, whenever they read about this fairy tale in books or watched on TV. It will be good for them just visit still existing lands under Socialism rules, as North Corea, Cuba or ven Belorus, to see how people are living there.

No system thinking best people must work hard to build happy existance for everyone who is lazy or uuseless could have future. XX century was a period of such crazy experimentation, and everyone knows what was the price of that mistake.
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Points: 12288 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 02:25
A dude is an illegal immigrant (wrong) in a certain country but a gentleman who owns a hotel employs him (wrong) paying 1/3 of the wage normally paid to a national or a legal immigrant (wrong) for doing twice the job the others should do (wrong). After one year, the still illegal dude (wrong) goes to the gentleman and asks for the delayed payments, a salary increase, certain benefits and other previous promises, them the gentleman calls the police and denounces an illegal immigrant (wrong) informing where he lives. The policemen go where the dude lives and arrest him as a criminal (wrong) and after 30 days or even more in jails (wrong) he gets a kick in the back and a one-way ticket to his country (wrong). Later, the dude will find a way to return and act the same way (wrong). Meanwhile, the gentleman hires another dude in a similar situation (wrong) and the wheel goes turning and turning (wrong and wrong)!
After that, the gentleman is awarded a prize for having one of the most profitable business in the country. In his speech, after receiving the award he states steadily: "All I got is because we live in a perfect capitalist system: no regulations, only profits!".
 
And the wheel goes turning and turning....
 
 
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 02:41
QUOTE=Atkingani]A dude is an illegal immigrant (wrong) in a certain country but a gentleman who owns a hotel employs him (wrong) paying 1/3 of the wage normally paid to a national or a legal immigrant (wrong) for doing twice the job the others should do (wrong). After one year, the still illegal dude (wrong) goes to the gentleman and asks for the delayed payments, a salary increase, certain benefits and other previous promises, them the gentleman calls the police and denounces an illegal immigrant (wrong) informing where he lives. The policemen go where the dude lives and arrest him as a criminal (wrong) and after 30 days or even more in jails (wrong) he gets a kick in the back and a one-way ticket to his country (wrong). Later, the dude will find a way to return and act the same way (wrong). Meanwhile, the gentleman hires another dude in a similar situation (wrong) and the wheel goes turning and turning (wrong and wrong)!
After that, the gentleman is awarded a prize for having one of the most profitable business in the country. In his speech, after receiving the award he states steadily: "All I got is because we live in a perfect capitalist system: no regulations, only profits!".
 
And the wheel goes turning and turning....
 
So true someone will always get exploited at another's expenseDisapprove
 
 
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 02:56
Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

A dude is an illegal immigrant (wrong) in a certain country but a gentleman who owns a hotel employs him (wrong) paying 1/3 of the wage normally paid to a national or a legal immigrant (wrong) for doing twice the job the others should do (wrong). After one year, the still illegal dude (wrong) goes to the gentleman and asks for the delayed payments, a salary increase, certain benefits and other previous promises, them the gentleman calls the police and denounces an illegal immigrant (wrong) informing where he lives. The policemen go where the dude lives and arrest him as a criminal (wrong) and after 30 days or even more in jails (wrong) he gets a kick in the back and a one-way ticket to his country (wrong). Later, the dude will find a way to return and act the same way (wrong). Meanwhile, the gentleman hires another dude in a similar situation (wrong) and the wheel goes turning and turning (wrong and wrong)!
After that, the gentleman is awarded a prize for having one of the most profitable business in the country. In his speech, after receiving the award he states steadily: "All I got is because we live in a perfect capitalist system: no regulations, only profits!".
 
And the wheel goes turning and turning....
 
 


Is there something specifically of capitalism nature in this example?

You can see the history when some guys (Central Commitee of Socialist Party,etc - many versions) using the results of the job of millions simple socialist workers on factories (for themself and their families). Some great experiments under the name of USSR of People Republic of China,etc, showed that man's nature is the same, doesn't matter what social system is. Smart people will always use another, not so smart, for building better life for themself. The only difference is in market economics smart people could do it in more competitors way, in socialism system they just usually using power to get what they want ( in the name of simple people, of course).
 
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 08:54
It seems that many posters think that Socialism comes in just one overpowering flavour only. There are many varieties and recipes of this ideological dish that don't require its advocates to surrender their collective will and autonomy to a totalitarian state e.g Social Democracy as practised in many European countries gives ample incentive to both fledgling entrepreneurs and their prospective workforce. Like all political compromises it is of course very far from perfect but it does at least recognise that human greed exists at both ends of the social spectrum and cuts its cloth accordingly.
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 09:28
http://thefastertimes.com/politicalhumor/2010/01/26/how-to-date-a-corporation-dating-rules-for-a-post-citizens-united-world/

The Supreme Court recently determined that corporations are entitled to freedom of speech because they are legally persons. The ramifications of this decision, Citizens United v. Federal Elections Commission, cannot be overstated:  it introduces an entirely new and untapped population into the dating pool.

Chances are you’ve never dated a corporation before. But don’t be intimidated. This can be a fun and exciting opportunity…  as long as you follow the corporation-dating rules.

Consider your options. There are a lot of corporations out there. Is this really the best corporation out there? Is this corporation “the one?” Or should you keep looking?

Don’t seem too eager to get involved. Remember, corporations are predatory by nature and enjoy a chase.

Do a background check. What kind of relationships has this corporation had in the past? What is the corporation’s history

Investigate the company the corporation keeps. Who is on its board of directors? Have any been indicted?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 09:37
I perfectly know this well-balanced social system of Scandinavian countries ( possibly the best existing sytem till now). Some name it Scandinavian socialism, but it isn't. Just another system - and it doesn't need this label at all. Another thing, that some theorethical fans of Socialism trying to wash this quite dirty now, after all these unhuman experiments, label, so using Scandinavian model as their theory's result. No way.

And another nuance - Scandinavia is one of highest developed region in the world ( in economics, menthality and culture), so - what is possible there, isn't possible in SE Asia, for example.Not economically - people should be educated enough to be ready to accept some limitations from one side, and don't use existing mechanism of regulation for their private needs, from another side. There are not too many places in the world, where such relations between employees and employers are possible.
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Points: 5148 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 18:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I believe in Social Democracy
I don't feel like explaining but it is capitalism, with some aspects of socialism.


Despite everything I used to want to think, capitalism is the best system....however, it is clearly flawed. Social Democracy is the best of both worlds. Indeed, the Nordic countries score among the top in regards of ease of doing business, economic freedom, GDP per capita, purchasing power and all that jazz, but also are the best in terms of income equality and have great social services.

The best of capitalism and socialism.

tl;dr version

Capitalism, (so number one) but it needs reform, and eventually move to a social democracy


Clap
OMG! I agree with both of you. Shocked
And I agree with all three of you.  I think that well-regulated capitalism or Social Democracy is the answer.  Then again, I'm only 14 (nearly 15) years old, so I haven't really experienced any kind of system personally.  However, my family has friends that work really hard but still have struggle to support themselves.  Whenever I hear about their problems, it makes me see through the myths of free market Capitalism.
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Points: 32476 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:15
Originally posted by gottagetintogetout gottagetintogetout wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I believe in Social Democracy
I don't feel like explaining but it is capitalism, with some aspects of socialism.


Despite everything I used to want to think, capitalism is the best system....however, it is clearly flawed. Social Democracy is the best of both worlds. Indeed, the Nordic countries score among the top in regards of ease of doing business, economic freedom, GDP per capita, purchasing power and all that jazz, but also are the best in terms of income equality and have great social services.

The best of capitalism and socialism.

tl;dr version

Capitalism, (so number one) but it needs reform, and eventually move to a social democracy


Clap
OMG! I agree with both of you. Shocked
And I agree with all three of you.  I think that well-regulated capitalism or Social Democracy is the answer.  Then again, I'm only 14 (nearly 15) years old, so I haven't really experienced any kind of system personally.  However, my family has friends that work really hard but still have struggle to support themselves.  Whenever I hear about their problems, it makes me see through the myths of free market Capitalism.


But it is likely through capitalism that your family's friends even have the jobs they do.

We could of course raise minimum wage again and again and again and inadvertently keep driving up the cost of living.  I call that a hamster wheel policy.  You don't get any place except tired.
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:15
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^I mean a world where big corporations reign supreme and all of us are but pawns in their game. This is the natural end of capitalism. Capital accumulation leads to monsters being created. With no regulation, those monsters will eventually get bigger than countries, have more power than them, and will dictate what is done and what is done. 

And meanwhile, the little people will be fooled thinking they own even a 0.0000001 % of the pie... 


Agree to disagree.
 
 
The T doesn't believe that the market (meaning all of us, because we are all consumers) can regulate itself and prevent corporations from running our lives.  This of course ignores the fact that the alternative, a regulatory bureaucracy, does not have to meet any of the demands of the market and is utterly inflexable to the changing consumers needs unless there is a massive change at the electoral level (in politicians) followed by an actual change in personel within the bueaucratic agencies themselves.  It's basically about trusting a small group of people, that you never see, entrenched in a government agency over a large group of people, including yourself and every other consumer.  Frankly, I don't know how one could trust the central planning of the few over the market desires of the whole.  It's nieve to think that the few can effectively and impartially decide what is best for the whole and deprecating to think that consumers are not able to control the shape of industry via their market actions.  Perhaps the problem is that a pure free market capitalism is nowhere to be found while corporatism rules the day.  Politicians (mostly on the left) who seek power will always blame capitalism for all our economic ills despite the fact that actual capitalism hasn't existed in this country for generations.  Do not confuse capitalism with corporatism.

I think the problem is the smear job that's been done to capitalism. People hear words like profit and images of fat cats swimming in blood money instantly fill their minds, rather than just seeing it at a useful, actually the only, means of signaling markets where to divert capital. 

Similarly any problems caused by government regulation are effectively blamed on the lack of regulation. Government props up its de facto monopolies for businesses that are well connected, then when the consumers suffer they instantly blame capitalism.

People really should at least be aware of von Mises and the Austrians in general. Capitalism has no defenders in mainstream media, politics, or academia. Republicans are as much mixed market collectivists as Democrats. 
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


I think the problem is the smear job that's been done to capitalism. People hear words like profit and images of fat cats swimming in blood money instantly fill their minds, rather than just seeing it at a useful, actually the only, means of signaling markets where to divert capital. 


IE speculation & excessive investment in certain sectors and neglect of others & rising prices?
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:23

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:26
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


I think the problem is the smear job that's been done to capitalism. People hear words like profit and images of fat cats swimming in blood money instantly fill their minds, rather than just seeing it at a useful, actually the only, means of signaling markets where to divert capital. 


IE speculation & excessive investment in certain sectors and neglect of others & rising prices?

Yes like the housing bubble that was created by the Fed, a government created central planning bank. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 19:28
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


I'm not a huge Ayn Rand guy, but God it would be nice if "conservatives" actually read Ayn Rand or held her in any high regard.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 32476 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 20:08
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 

I'm not a huge Ayn Rand guy, but God it would be nice if "conservatives" actually read Ayn Rand or held her in any high regard.


Or liberals knew what she actually stood for.
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2010 at 20:10
Well now you're asking way too much.
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