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UndercoverBoy 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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 Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:22 |
 JLocke wrote:
Any teacher who pushes somebody else's agenda to her students should be fired, in my opinion. It gets us nowhere when an entire generation is told exactly what to think and feel. What we SHOULD be telling our kids is to think and feel for themselves.
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Yup. I think that showing his films in a classroom is beyond ridiculous. Still, that shows more about the teacher than it does about Michael Moore.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:24 |
UndercoverBoy wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Any teacher who pushes somebody else's agenda to her students should be fired, in my opinion. It gets us nowhere when an entire generation is told exactly what to think and feel. What we SHOULD be telling our kids is to think and feel for themselves.
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Yup. I think that showing his films in a classroom is beyond ridiculous. Still, that shows more about the teacher than it does about Michael Moore.
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Well, if you notice, I did in fact say that Michael Moore would most likely agree with us all that the teacher forcing-feeding the kids isn't cool.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:34 |
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I agree with him a lot of time. When he took patients to Cuba to show the wonders of the cuban system was one of those times when I didn't.
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:35 |
UndercoverBoy wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Any teacher who pushes somebody else's agenda to her students should be fired, in my opinion. It gets us nowhere when an entire generation is told exactly what to think and feel. What we SHOULD be telling our kids is to think and feel for themselves.
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Yup. I think that showing his films in a classroom is beyond ridiculous. Still, that shows more about the teacher than it does about Michael Moore.
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I think it depends on how the film is used - if it's simply used as a substitute for actual teaching, then there certainly is an issue; if the film (or a section of it) is used to encourage students to engage with it and to explore and criticise or justify the opinions, then it's as valid as using a book or magazine article.
Broadly speaking I tend to agree with Michael Moore, but he does over simplify. However, he reaches far more people than Noam Chomsky and (to judge from the blogosphere) there's no shortage of people who disagree with him - if he's trying to brainwash people he's failing pretty dismally.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Dorsalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2006
Location: Cape Mola
Status: Offline
Points: 367
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:42 |
Syzygy wrote:
I think it depends on how the film is used - if it's simply used as a substitute for actual teaching, then there certainly is an issue; if the film (or a section of it) is used to encourage students to engage with it and to explore and criticise or justify the opinions, then it's as valid as using a book or magazine article.
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I agree. There is no right or wrong in terms of the material used in a classroom. What matters is how it's used. So to judge this particular case, we'd need to know more about what the teacher did with the film in the classroom.
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"Es ist übrigens unmöglich, eine Meinung zu haben, ohne dass es unerfreuliche Überschneidungen gibt. Die Grünen sind für den deutschen Wald, die NPD ebenfalls."
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:44 |
I've liked MM ever since Roger & Me. Never seen anything in any of his films or read anything on his website that I didn't agree with. He gets trashed on the right for challenging the powers that be. I would like to add that Noam doesn't reach too many people because he writes books that are really hard to read. I have yet to finish one.  The guy is extremely eloquent though.
Edited by Slartibartfast - June 01 2010 at 11:47
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Dorsalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2006
Location: Cape Mola
Status: Offline
Points: 367
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:47 |
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"Es ist übrigens unmöglich, eine Meinung zu haben, ohne dass es unerfreuliche Überschneidungen gibt. Die Grünen sind für den deutschen Wald, die NPD ebenfalls."
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:48 |
JLocke wrote:
 Okay, cool. I look foreard to debating with you. |
Okay, so here-a we go (pun intended):
It's true that countries with gun control have far less gun-related crime than those that don't. For example: Gun Deaths - International Comparisons Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated): | | Homicide | Suicide | Other (inc Accident) | | | | | | | USA (2001) | 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36 | | Italy (1997) | 0.81 | 1.1 | 0.07 | | Switzerland (1998) | 0.50 | 5.8 | 0.10 | | Canada (2002) | 0.4 | 2.0 | 0.04 | | Finland (2003) | 0.35 | 4.45 | 0.10 | | Australia (2001) | 0.24 | 1.34 | 0.10 | | France (2001) | 0.21 | 3.4 | 0.49 | | England/Wales (2002) | 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03 | | Scotland (2002) | 0.06 | 0.2 | 0.02 | | Japan (2002) | 0.02 | 0.04 | 0 |
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.
According to these statistics, the U.S. has nearly 10 times more gun-related homicides than Canada (which, if I'm not mistaken, has more guns per capita than the U.S.), 27 times more gun-related homicides than England and Wales, 66 times more than Scotland, and 200 times more than Japan (to be fair, I don't think Japan was ever steeped in gun control like Western civilizations are.) Clearly, guns have some role in the equation. I'm not asking for the outright banning of guns, like some of the countries in that chart do, but I don't think that any psychopathic lunatic should be able to get his hands on a gun. If there were stricter firearm laws for the U.S., I'm sure that your "how am I supposed to defend myself from an armed criminal" situation would be very less likely. And since I'm assuming that you are a stable person, the process of getting a gun license in Canada does not seem very difficult, and the extensive background checks and restricting activities to hunting and other sports have proven to be very effective.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:48 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:49 |
UndercoverBoy wrote:
According to these statistics, the U.S. has nearly 10 times more gun-related homicides than Canada |
We're number one, we're number one!!!! Uhm, number one with a bullet. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - June 01 2010 at 11:50
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dorsalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2006
Location: Cape Mola
Status: Offline
Points: 367
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:51 |
No but seriously, that's one of the reasons I don't live in that country anymore. It scares the hell out of me sometimes.
Edited by Dorsalia - June 01 2010 at 11:51
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"Es ist übrigens unmöglich, eine Meinung zu haben, ohne dass es unerfreuliche Überschneidungen gibt. Die Grünen sind für den deutschen Wald, die NPD ebenfalls."
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 11:55 |
Dorsalia wrote:
No but seriously, that's one of the reasons I don't live in that country anymore. It scares the hell out of me sometimes.
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Don't give Canada such a hard time or I will have to shoot you 
Edited by Slartibartfast - June 01 2010 at 11:56
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dorsalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2006
Location: Cape Mola
Status: Offline
Points: 367
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:00 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Dorsalia wrote:
No but seriously, that's one of the reasons I don't live in that country anymore. It scares the hell out of me sometimes.
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Don't give Canada such a hard time or I will have to shoot you
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Now Canada I wouldn't mind living in. It's a beautiful country. I mean, so is the U.S., don't get me wrong, I just don't want to live there anymore.
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"Es ist übrigens unmöglich, eine Meinung zu haben, ohne dass es unerfreuliche Überschneidungen gibt. Die Grünen sind für den deutschen Wald, die NPD ebenfalls."
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:01 |
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I'm certainly not moving to Finland. You never know what I might do if I went there!
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Help me I'm falling!
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:17 |
I think he's a talented filmaker and I enjoy his films. I disagree with him on most issues though. He's sort of the Michael Savage of the left. He's often misguided, but much more fun than Al Franken ever was.
TV Nation was awesome fun!
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32477
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:21 |
Dorsalia wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
I think it depends on how the film is used - if it's simply used as a substitute for actual teaching, then there certainly is an issue; if the film (or a section of it) is used to encourage students to engage with it and to explore and criticise or justify the opinions, then it's as valid as using a book or magazine article.
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I agree. There is no right or wrong in terms of the material used in a classroom. What matters is how it's used. So to judge this particular case, we'd need to know more about what the teacher did with the film in the classroom.
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Let someone use the Bible
in a public school setting
regardless of the context
and see what happens.
Edited by Epignosis - June 01 2010 at 12:21
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Dorsalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2006
Location: Cape Mola
Status: Offline
Points: 367
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:28 |
Epignosis wrote:
Dorsalia wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
I think it depends on how the film is used - if it's simply used as a substitute for actual teaching, then there certainly is an issue; if the film (or a section of it) is used to encourage students to engage with it and to explore and criticise or justify the opinions, then it's as valid as using a book or magazine article.
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I agree. There is no right or wrong in terms of the material used in a classroom. What matters is how it's used. So to judge this particular case, we'd need to know more about what the teacher did with the film in the classroom.
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Let someone use the Bible
in a public school setting
regardless of the context
and see what happens.
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Same goes for the Bible. Of course it should be used, at least in high schools. It should be used in the study of history, literature, philosophy and politics, to say the least. It is one of the most important books in the history of our modern world and how you could conceive of giving someone an education without analysing the bible's impact is beyond me.
Edited by Dorsalia - June 01 2010 at 12:32
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"Es ist übrigens unmöglich, eine Meinung zu haben, ohne dass es unerfreuliche Überschneidungen gibt. Die Grünen sind für den deutschen Wald, die NPD ebenfalls."
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:34 |
I agree in principle with most of his political views, and IMHO he will likely be seen as a visionary fifty years from now after he's dead.
I do believe he intentionally oversimplifies his positions in his films, but given that he has to cover an awful lot of ground in 120 minutes or less that's understandable to a certain degree. They guy does do his homework and is quite eloquent in the interviews I've seen with him. IMHO he is truly passionate about improving our country and I do think he sees himself as a committed patriot, just one that has a different viewpoint than many of the flag-waving types who also sometimes have just as black-and-white views of the world.
Maybe we need a poll on favorite scenes from a MM film.
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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Dorsalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2006
Location: Cape Mola
Status: Offline
Points: 367
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:42 |
ClemofNazareth wrote:
I agree in principle with most of his political views, and IMHO he will likely be seen as a visionary fifty years from now after he's dead.
I do believe he intentionally oversimplifies his positions in his films, but given that he has to cover an awful lot of ground in 120 minutes or less that's understandable to a certain degree. They guy does do his homework and is quite eloquent in the interviews I've seen with him. IMHO he is truly passionate about improving our country and I do think he sees himself as a committed patriot, just one that has a different viewpoint than many of the flag-waving types who also sometimes have just as black-and-white views of the world.
Maybe we need a poll on favorite scenes from a MM film. |
I'd have to go with the "Corporate Cops" segment from Bowling for Columbine.
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"Es ist übrigens unmöglich, eine Meinung zu haben, ohne dass es unerfreuliche Überschneidungen gibt. Die Grünen sind für den deutschen Wald, die NPD ebenfalls."
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: June 01 2010 at 12:46 |
Dorsalia wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Dorsalia wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
I think it depends on how the film is used - if it's simply used as a substitute for actual teaching, then there certainly is an issue; if the film (or a section of it) is used to encourage students to engage with it and to explore and criticise or justify the opinions, then it's as valid as using a book or magazine article.
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I agree. There is no right or wrong in terms of the material used in a classroom. What matters is how it's used. So to judge this particular case, we'd need to know more about what the teacher did with the film in the classroom.
|
Let someone use the Bible
in a public school setting
regardless of the context
and see what happens.
|
Same goes for the Bible. Of course it should be used, at least in high schools. It should be used in the study of history, literature, philosophy and politics, to say the least. It is one of the most important books in the history of our modern world and how you could conceive of giving someone an education without analysing the bible's impact is beyond me.
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What has the Bible got to do with History?
Anyway I agree with the French in that there is no place for Religion in Schools (Possibly the study of ALL the different religions in RE) but if parents want there kids to study a religion of any type then they can do it outside school. (Church might be an appropriate place for example.
Keep the Bible out of schools.
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Help me I'm falling!
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Michael Moore
You don't feel like debating today?