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Bonnek View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why do prog artists peak out?
    Posted: March 02 2011 at 06:11

Some artists peak out, others not, regardless whether they are prog or not.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2011 at 01:16
Originally posted by Valentino Valentino wrote:

How can a progressive rock band continue to progress when the fans almost always want them to return to their "original" sound?
 
Exactly. I've went off about this so many times.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:20
How can a progressive rock band continue to progress when the fans almost always want them to return to their "original" sound?


Edited by Valentino - March 01 2011 at 17:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 02:20
They peak out because invention becomes the norm, the musicians head for the centre of the atom and all the outer world around them disappears, all terms of reference become lost. Witness Fripp.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2011 at 22:18
You also have to take into account that fact that classical compositions have had the luxury of passed time, and each piece can be judged individually based on its own merit. However, this is inapplicable to modern bands, and generally every band has a fanbase which has come to appreciate certain aspects of a bands sound, and, through the natural progression of time, this sound begins to evolve, mutate, and meld with other styles of music.  In its own right, and compared solely to its predecessors, this music may in the end have just as much compositional value as what came before.  But this change in sound will inevitable alienate many of a band's principle fans, who have come to expect a certain sound.  When this expectation goes unmet, it is inevitable that certain people will look down on what has been made.  This problem is furthered in a genre that holds bands that generally go unnoticed by the majority of the music listening community, and most of  a band's fans will have already come to appreciate the sound that is regarded as the band's forte.  Which is why, new fans to a band will generally love the first album they hear, because they were able to enjoy the sound without previous sentiments on what it should be, and are therefore able to listen without bias.

Edited by Porcupinetheater - February 27 2011 at 00:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2010 at 02:54
the'lack of ideas' syndrome is something Yes have been always had LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2010 at 10:44
John McLaughlin..........the only guitarist that makes me want to put my guitar down and walk away. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2010 at 16:24
For sure it has to do with fame, money and the pressure of record companies and/or managers.
Jazz and Jazz-Rock musicians are much more free from these things and they usually enjoy much loger and more stable careers, often getting better and better with age, simply look at Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Jack De Johnette, Metheny, John McLaughlin and so many others.
 
In particular regarding the peak-out of the prog "Big Ones" we have indeed to consider the factor that prog was being killed by the late 70's so many of them panicked and started pointing somewhere else, hoping that that would be a way the public would follow. I guess that period was pretty special and more related to the change of culture rather than to a decline in artistic creativity or musical proficiency in itself.


Edited by Gerinski - December 22 2010 at 16:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2010 at 23:45
Originally posted by Baggra Baggra wrote:

Okay, I see this thread as being mainly about   "wouldnt your compositional skill improve with age?".
 
Getting past 50, technical skill may start going downhill and become unable to run side-by-side with creative competence (which ,as you say, may have even become BETTER with the passage of time.)

Hah!  Try telling that to John McLaughlin!  That cat STILL blazes!  

Seems like the jazzers keep on going & going....old-time cats like Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass etc. were productive like, forever, and never seemed to lose a step.  Amazing, considering the complexity of their music!

The first generation of prog musicians (Fripp, Anderson, Squire etc.) are now entering/well into their 60's, and I'd say that many of them continue to be productive.   Touring is a real grind, and as we age, it gets more challenging & less inviting....you'd rather get a good night's sleep every night than get laid constantly!!  LOL

It seems like many of these musicians prefer to produce younger bands & musicians, mentor students, or pursue their craft in other creative ways that are not so stressful as being a gigging/touring/recording artist.  Eno enjoys his art, Fripp his Guitar Craft teaching, etc. Also, many are mentoring & coaching their children in the field, such as Rick & Ollie Wakeman (although the recent Yes spat involving Benoit David seems to have caused a familial rift!!)

Having known quite a few of these folks, I'd say that they are remarkably human & vulnerable, sensitive to an extreme, and nearly all good-hearted.  You don't find many filthy-rich proggers out there, believe me!    Seek them out, they aren't that hard to connect with at smaller venues, and they truly enjoy high-level, intellectual conversation about music!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2010 at 23:26
Almost everyone eventually peaks or goes through a slump.  Usually once they do anything after that will not be noticed (or less noticed than the not-slump stuff).  I've found that I like a lot of works by older bands that they've come out with today, but fans of the original works refuse to acknowledge anything past their favorite album.  It's a combination of comparing everything a band does to their "best" work and the sensation around a record rather than a record itself.  Despite prog's whole, "we aren't really a radio band" thing, there is occasional glimpses of radio success.  Usually that's the last we'll hear from that artist.  I don't think most artists truly peak (even if they have a best, it's not that much higher than the other stuff that they've done), but rather fan's refuse to let anything be better than a certain album.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2010 at 21:54
Okay, I see this thread as being mainly about   "wouldnt your compositional skill improve with age?".
 
 
 
(Most notably) concerning solo prog outings,   fans complain the artist in question has mellowed and is not composing as cuttingly/challangingly/dynamically as he did in his youth. They posit that, with the advance of time,  he has lost some degree of  his former compositional prowess.
 
But do any ever consider the possibility that  the artist  purposely and LOGICALLY composes more simple stuff in later life purely for the  straight  PHYSICAL reason of time taking its wretched toll on sinew,muscle and even bone ?
 
Simply because he can no longer meet the demands of the instrument or the (more youthful) composition  - with age he is limited by what his fingers/hands/wrists alone can achieve. 
 
Getting past 50, technical skill may start going downhill and become unable to run side-by-side with creative competence (which ,as you say, may have even become BETTER with the passage of time.)


Edited by Baggra - December 18 2010 at 21:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2010 at 20:55
...not to be stupid or anything, but the use of drugs, particularly high-grade hashish (Yes) and/or speed (ELP) helped many of these bands to develop their best works!

Yes purportedly came up with TFTO during a trans-Atlantic flight, whilst munching on hash brownies!   

My own creativity and drive decreased markedly when I "cleaned up my act."   That, plus family pressures, age & other distractions, reduce the energy level.

Relationships also matter!  http://www.elephant-talk.com/articles/fripp-yp.htmAccording to Fripp:

ZZ: Why have there always been these changes in Crimson? 


RF: It's a prima facie case of instability. (Then) Re the first King Crimson, the band was united by the common denominator of intense frustration and animosity towards the world in general, and ourselves in particular. 


Mike Giles fell in love; which he did for the first time about the beginning of King Crimson, and Ian McDonald for the first time too, and as these relationships developed they found these relationships more satisfying than the band could offer, and as Ian became less frustrated his playing went completely to pot.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2010 at 06:28
I think that if prog will ever have it's own Beethoven, he will not peak up,bottom line it is a matter of genius
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2010 at 15:17
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I think some artists have remained consistent.   Some artists have remained
at top form (Magma, Hammill, Hawkwind).  I may be in the minority, but I'm not
too embarrassed by late Yes.  They have the spiritual thing down, as do I think
Magma, Hammill and Hawkwind.  When you lose that, you lose the source
of great music.  You can't make objects of great beauty unless you are feeling
beauty.  You can't feel beauty and live in a ratty attitude.
 
I don't know, I think a lot of fans would agree post-'85 Hawkwind isn't up 'to the level' but I do know people who swear by Xenon Codex and Electric Tepee.
 
Some bands probably peak because they refuse to deviate from a particular formula. I think that's why ELP wrote their best material circa '70-'73 and everything else afterward is deemed (arguably) subpar. I, myself, enjoy the ELPowell album a great deal, and the KEB disc with Bonilla is also very good. Lake solo just isn't my cup. I don't think Carl writes much original stuff, he just plays with his own band and in Asia.
 
Rush has gotten a lot of flak for changing their sound in the '80s and recently with the shift back to a harder sound on Vapor Trails. Apart from a dip in the early 1990's, I think Rush is one of the most consistent bands out there. VT is fantastic, but I didn't like all of the songs on Snakes. Still, looking forward to anything they put out. I like the two new songs.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2010 at 11:24
I think 'Peaking out ' happens when the band or artist moves on but the audience doesn't...Usually a composer or band  will say to themselves " Right, Ive done, that whats next?"   The audience thinks to themselves " Right, that was briliant! I want more of the same only better."  Pretty often the audience gets what they want, but if they dont then  "The band have peaked already"  All musicians and composers  hope that their audience will go with them on their musical journey, often though the audience have other ideas! and thats cool. Over the last forty years of LP buying I have to say though, I have caught up with LP's that I thought disappointing back in the day. Time can often heal the disparagement's in each ones perceptions. OUCH!  where did that one come from ? I need a beer!

Edited by Greenbubbleman - December 16 2010 at 11:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2010 at 08:47
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

Frank Zappa never peaked out.
No Zappa and Fripp, yes they changes, but they never sold out, or stopped beeing creative, provoking and interesting. 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2010 at 08:42
The band is a lot harder than just the composer thing, i totaly agree is a but part of it.  
 
And, if we talk mostly about those 70's people, Genesis, Yes, Floyd, ELP ect. The fact that they was about to loose a huge audience, and their media platform, due to the general culture change in late 70's early 80's,  made them panic quite a bit. They knew if they stayed ground, the train would just pass them by.
So either they lost "that" "It" a bit, or they chose to try follow the wind. 
 
If you take a look at the 80's in general, it was a time of denying the Hippies(60's-70's) and come up with anything new.
 
 


Edited by tamijo - December 16 2010 at 08:52
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2010 at 21:18
Frank Zappa never peaked out.
Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2010 at 20:07
I think some artists have remained consistent.   Some artists have remained
at top form (Magma, Hammill, Hawkwind).  I may be in the minority, but I'm not
too embarrassed by late Yes.  They have the spiritual thing down, as do I think
Magma, Hammill and Hawkwind.  When you lose that, you lose the source
of great music.  You can't make objects of great beauty unless you are feeling
beauty.  You can't feel beauty and live in a ratty attitude.

--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2010 at 11:16
One observation about classical that may not have been noted here.  A lot of the larger classical pieces were written on commission, in other words, commercial success was not an issue.  At the same time a lot of classical musicians also "sold out" by writing tunes for the masses, ie shorter dance tunes and hymns. Over time these became just as important to the ouvre as the grander pieces.
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