Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Epic songs: two Dreams sorrounding one Reality?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Epic songs: two Dreams sorrounding one Reality?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Epic songs: two Dreams sorrounding one Reality?
    Posted: October 10 2010 at 06:24

From the literature that I have, it was king crimson who did it first: writing an epic song, dividing it to two halves, one half as the first song of the album, the other as the last song. Lark`s tongues in aspic was the album from king crimson which released in 1973 and for the first time (I think by far) provided an epic song in the above mentioned way. The second sample arrives with Shine on you crazy diamond, 1975 by pink Floyd which introduces the title epic track in a divided form at the beginning and the end of the album. From the more recent bands maybe the most significant case for the application of such structure is systematic chaos, 2007 by Dream Theater which divides the almost 26 minute epic, in the presence of enemies again to two parts, opening and closing the album. In all these three mentioned cases we see a number of tracks between the two parts of epic which offer different atmospheres and concepts for the listener. In fact the listener begins the journey in the album in an epic-minded manner but suddenly finds himself in another place as the first half of the epic finishes. Going through technically and emotionally diverse songs, back again to the story of the epic to conclude the structure of the album.

This may be considered as an amazing or even important case in the field of song arrangement and album structure making for progressive music. The question is that, where does this idea come from to not to introduce an epic song as a continuous one but instead, as a separated form.

The first thing that may comes to one`s mind is that maybe such method is used to avoid having a too long song in album. But this reason is not logical enough since we see some cases which denied it, say Octavarium by DT and Echoes by PF So there should be a more conceptual reason for such kind of album structure.

For the writer, this idea seems to be a little deeper and more original that we look at it. In fact, this is the structure which resembles the timeline of `human existence` … a line, which begins with some kind of unconscious existence in a hallucinating unknown environment, the body of mother, continues with the `birth` introducing the `life` on the earth with whole of its realities, dreams, diversities, feelings, ended by `death` which is again as mysterious and unknown as inside of mother`s body…

The time line for existence of mankind resembles something like `a dream between two realities` or as well `a reality between to dreams` which may be arguable philosophically. The interesting thing about some progressive albums which have mentioned above is that in fact, they follow exactly the same time line.

I hope that the matter has been discussed in a clear form. This is in fact a matter of inter-relationship of Art, philosophy and psychology. The artists of those works could have applied such kind of structure unconsciously or, for another conscious reason that they have concerned. In fact we know that all of the artistic actions of the brain takes place in its right side which is regarded of course as the more unconscious side. The thing that was so amazing for the writer of the note, is the deep and meaningful connection of `real life` and `artistic structure and form` in the work of such progressive giants like PF, KG and DT. No matter it has been done consciously or unconsciously, this can be regarded as one of the signs which verifies the unique and well processed understanding of `life` and `art` for an artist.

The writer hopes that more broad discussions on such cases which may result in better understanding of the philosophy of art and specially progressive music as well. 

thx PA.



Edited by sohraab - October 10 2010 at 06:25
Back to Top
fuxi View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2392
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fuxi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2010 at 09:05
In King Crimson's case, I don't believe the band were thinking of "a dream between two realities" or "a reality between two dreams". I think they were just trying to gather a lot of disparate material, some of which happened to be based on the same musical theme.

At the same time, the principle you are trying to describe had a precedent in one of rock's earliest concept albums, SGT. PEPPER.

Although "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band" cannot be called an "epic song", it introduces ALMOST all the material on the album, and it finally waves that material goodbye as well. You could say the song helps to establish the band's "alternative reality" (i.e. Beatlesque reality, as opposed to the boredom of ordinary, humdrum lives).

Only "A Day in the Life" lies outside this reality. And surely that's not just a coincidence, since the song is meant to evoke a dreamlike state.

Having said all that, there must be operas, string quartets, masses etc. etc. which were composed using similar "bookend" methods.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2010 at 10:03
seems that u get the point, not completely but very close... however, my note has a little to do directly with technical issue of prog. music but instead, i`m trying to figure out some significant characteristics of prog musicians ideology which results in a specific artistic form in their works. specially, such characteristics are more touchable when one looks to 70`s bands. the reason may be due to their unique period of time regarding the cultural and social condition of those days and more important, the fact that they were all the children of second world war, carrying some special consequences which guides them through a very narrow and accurate artistic movement.
a nice post indeed,

Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2010 at 23:46
190 views and only 1 reply?! ok. maybe this one is a little deep and complicated one for most of the readers. but in fact it`s quite simple... and i expected the people have kinda reaction at least. i think these kind of discussions may be amazing and also fundamentally helpful to figure out some social aspects of progressive music. not agree?
Back to Top
Any Colour You Like View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Any Colour You Like Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 00:10
Originally posted by sohraab sohraab wrote:

190 views and only 1 reply?! ok. maybe this one is a little deep and complicated one for most of the readers


Be warned, this is not deep.

Enter Moshkito.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 00:19
Originally posted by Any Colour You Like Any Colour You Like wrote:

Originally posted by sohraab sohraab wrote:

190 views and only 1 reply?! ok. maybe this one is a little deep and complicated one for most of the readers


Be warned, this is not deep.

Enter Moshkito.


thank uuuuuuuuuuuuu! at last someone said something!!! of course it is not deep for me as i told but for others maybe... and if not also deep for u, so i`m waiting for anything which ignites the flame of discussion! u r more than welcome.
Back to Top
Any Colour You Like View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Any Colour You Like Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 00:25
If you want my opinion, you're overanalysing it. All art is inherently subjective, and any attempt to describe, categorise or analyse is bound by limited human conciousness. Life and art are essentially the same thing, for without either they can have no interpretive meaning.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 00:41
Originally posted by Any Colour You Like Any Colour You Like wrote:

If you want my opinion, you're overanalysing it. All art is inherently subjective, and any attempt to describe, categorise or analyse is bound by limited human conciousness. Life and art are essentially the same thing, for without either they can have no interpretive meaning.


ok your idea is respectable. but i can not agree with that art is bound by limited human consciousness. it is proven many years ago by the very basic physiological science studies that almost all of the artistic activities and thoughts are promoted by the right half of the human`s brain which is indeed the responsible half for unconscious acts; ves. left half which rules the logically driven consciously activities. (see Ernest Jones and also Zigmund Freud works if interested).
if you like i`ll be glad to provide more information for you.
Back to Top
Any Colour You Like View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Any Colour You Like Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 00:51
Originally posted by sohraab sohraab wrote:

Originally posted by Any Colour You Like Any Colour You Like wrote:

If you want my opinion, you're overanalysing it. All art is inherently subjective, and any attempt to describe, categorise or analyse is bound by limited human conciousness. Life and art are essentially the same thing, for without either they can have no interpretive meaning.


ok your idea is respectable. but i can not agree with that art is bound by limited human consciousness. it is proven many years ago by the very basic physiological science studies that almost all of the artistic activities and thoughts are promoted by the right half of the human`s brain which is indeed the responsible half for unconscious acts; ves. left half which rules the logically driven consciously activities. (see Ernest Jones and also Zigmund Freud works if interested).
if you like i`ll be glad to provide more information for you.


Ok.

If art can be unconciously analysed, recognised or even perceived, how does this manifest itself in concious thought or perception?
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 02:46
Originally posted by Any Colour You Like Any Colour You Like wrote:

Originally posted by sohraab sohraab wrote:

Originally posted by Any Colour You Like Any Colour You Like wrote:

If you want my opinion, you're overanalysing it. All art is inherently subjective, and any attempt to describe, categorise or analyse is bound by limited human conciousness. Life and art are essentially the same thing, for without either they can have no interpretive meaning.


ok your idea is respectable. but i can not agree with that art is bound by limited human consciousness. it is proven many years ago by the very basic physiological science studies that almost all of the artistic activities and thoughts are promoted by the right half of the human`s brain which is indeed the responsible half for unconscious acts; ves. left half which rules the logically driven consciously activities. (see Ernest Jones and also Zigmund Freud works if interested).
if you like i`ll be glad to provide more information for you.


Ok.

If art can be unconciously analysed, recognised or even perceived, how does this manifest itself in concious thought or perception?


it`s simple. right half and left half of the brain are connected to each other via a thin layer. that`s how they transfer data to each other. in fact, any action that we do, which is in our case music composing, is the product of both parts of the brain. the share which is processed by left part is mostly ruled by conscious abilities which is in our case say, musical profession in terms of theoretical education of music composing. but the more important part of music composing flows out of our right brain, say unconscious.  i give u a simple example. IMPROVISATION. this is exactly a part of music which is totally unconsciously driven. the proof is that u see Robert Fripp improvise, if u ask him to do it again in next 24 hours he can not do the same improvisation. because this is exactly a `particularly unconscious product of brain` which can not be resembled!
the interviewer asks Dave Gilmour about the opening strings of shine on you. where did it come to your mind? he answers no where! it just came in one moment! this is what is called unconsciously composed music and in a broader definition, unconsciously created Art.

Back to Top
Any Colour You Like View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Any Colour You Like Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 03:04
If improvisation is unconciously driven, why do we have control over the ability to differentiate between the concious and the subconcious. In the moment you perceive anything and react accordingly, the subconcious is lost. Does that not create the perception of conciousness?
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl Team

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy/UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5955
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 09:09
I'm not sure to catch the question: Is ELP - The Endless Enigma a valid example?
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 09:15
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I'm not sure to catch the question: Is ELP - The Endless Enigma a valid example?


i`m sorry my friend but since ELP is not my cup of tea, i can not judge or even analyze their music as well. so if u consider PF shine on u it`s better for me. anyway it is not a question. i`m just trying to figure out kind of psychological reason for two-halved epics at the beginning and end of the albums. i introduced my own theory. waiting for others opinions. thx.
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl Team

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy/UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5955
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 09:25
Originally posted by sohraab sohraab wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I'm not sure to catch the question: Is ELP - The Endless Enigma a valid example?


i`m sorry my friend but since ELP is not my cup of tea, i can not judge or even analyze their music as well. so if u consider PF shine on u it`s better for me. anyway it is not a question. i`m just trying to figure out kind of psychological reason for two-halved epics at the beginning and end of the albums. i introduced my own theory. waiting for others opinions. thx.
Now it's a bit clearer. 
The ELP song is a long track divided just by a short piano instrumental instead of a whole album, but the 3 parts flow quite good one into the other. 

About Shine on, there are a couple of boxsets on which you can listen to it without any split. I suppose they have decided to split it only because of technical reasons, then, instead of just splitting they did something more original by putting the second part at the end of the B-side as album closure.
I'm quite sure that the idea came after the song was completely written.
Wish You Were Here is not a concept album like The Dark Side of the Moon. On Dark Side, we have the heartbeat that opens and closes a story, and has a sense. There's nothing to close on WYWH.






Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 09:31
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by sohraab sohraab wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I'm not sure to catch the question: Is ELP - The Endless Enigma a valid example?


i`m sorry my friend but since ELP is not my cup of tea, i can not judge or even analyze their music as well. so if u consider PF shine on u it`s better for me. anyway it is not a question. i`m just trying to figure out kind of psychological reason for two-halved epics at the beginning and end of the albums. i introduced my own theory. waiting for others opinions. thx.
Now it's a bit clearer. 
The ELP song is a long track divided just by a short piano instrumental instead of a whole album, but the 3 parts flow quite good one into the other. 

About Shine on, there are a couple of boxsets on which you can listen to it without any split. I suppose they have decided to split it only because of technical reasons, then, instead of just splitting they did something more original by putting the second part at the end of the B-side as album closure.
I'm quite sure that the idea came after the song was completely written.
Wish You Were Here is not a concept album like The Dark Side of the Moon. On Dark Side, we have the heartbeat that opens and closes a story, and has a sense. There's nothing to close on WYWH.


i got u. u mean this is just for technical reasons. but how about king crimson`s lark`s tongue? if we consider it again from technical point, then what about dream theater`s `in the presence of enemies` which is composed in our age without any technical problem forcing them to split it. i think there IS SOMETHING about the matter. something beyond technical stuff. as i introduced in my original post...
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl Team

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy/UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5955
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 09:39
I'm not so expert of KC and DT so I can't say. I have to think to something else. 
Staying on "Shine on": that song has very few of the dream and the whole album is very connected to reality. Waters is not a dreamer. The only dreams that you can find in Pink Floyd came from Barrett (The Scarecrow, The Gnome, Mathilda Mother....)




Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 09:46
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I'm not so expert of KC and DT so I can't say. I have to think to something else. 
Staying on "Shine on": that song has very few of the dream and the whole album is very connected to reality. Waters is not a dreamer. The only dreams that you can find in Pink Floyd came from Barrett (The Scarecrow, The Gnome, Mathilda Mother....)


exactly! and the interesting point is that `shine on` is written for Syd! i`m not trying to figure out something just with making nonsense relationship between statements. but trying to assess the musical tendencies of 70`s composers from a non-technical point of view, more concerning their society situation of that time and their effects on psychological characteristics of artists. i opened this broad discussion with a very narrow and particular view regarding epic songs. but in fact discussion may be broaden to other areas as well.  
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl Team

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy/UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5955
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 10:17
It's a coincidence. I was listening to Senmuth's "RXG-242-11". The opener is Megiste Syntaxis 1 and the closer "Megiste Syntaxis 2. Thos tracks are effectively different from the rest of the album. 
It's downloadable for free on www.senmuth.com as all the other 79 albums that he has published in the last 5 years. Give it a try.
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
Back to Top
sohraab View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sohraab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 10:21
[QUOTE=octopus-4]It's a coincidence. I was listening to Senmuth's "RXG-242-11". The opener is Megiste Syntaxis 1 and the closer "Megiste Syntaxis 2. Thos tracks are effectively different from the rest of the album. 
It's downloadable for free on www.senmuth.com as all the other 79 albums that he has published in the last 5 years. Give it a try.
[/QUOTE

thx for suggestion. i`ll check it by sure. but if you think so tough that all these are coincidence, means that u r completely rejecting my theory! i never consider anything 100% percent on this world! maybe we have the possibility to look at the matters from another angel... agree or not?
Back to Top
npjnpj View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1624
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote npjnpj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2010 at 10:25
Much too heavy for my way of thinking.

In my mind there are two connected reasons for the split:

1) Simply to avoid the song getting to be too long. I have the feeling that for some people PF's Shine On or Lark's Tongues would start to drag a bit when played as a continuous song. In the early 70's, with people not really used to such mammoth tracks, it was a sensible decision.

2) It's a neat idea to do it that way.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.113 seconds.