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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 18:20
Seriously people, MORE DRAMA over this band? Confused

Come on now. I'm not their biggest fan, but I MUST agree with the guy that
PA was probably the only place where the album was so ill received. Nevertheless, The problem of Pain: part 1 case could be one interesting sociology study: how the opinion of other people influence your own. I must say that, for this album, my opinion about it was not a bit influecenced by its actual grade.

EDIT: This situation is what probably ended killed the "featured band of the month" thing, if you stop to think about it for one second.


Edited by CCVP - October 17 2010 at 18:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 18:58
^ It didn't kill it off then, but it did maim it.

As for Olav's post: I didn't even manage to find VM's review of The Problem of Pain on Progressor (or any Progressor review of that album), though a review of it there was mentioned in the interview.  Just saw his reviews of earlier Torman Maxt albums. Most of the reviews I've read have been middling to very good at other sites, but I see very limited reviews of the album at most sites (just one review which makes it less trustworthy to me -- especially as I am unfamiliar with moist of those reviewers and know nothing of their music credentials/ educational background).  It would be useful to check out other sites where it's been reviewed by a number of people.  As for pros and semi-pros reviews, I'd like to see how, and if, it was reviewed in any scholarly music journals. I believe that most here simply did not like the music, or think it good. I don't really dislike it; just find it very boring/ unadventurous and feel it lacks sufficient contrast etc. That you think it's 4 stars is fine, though your review doesn't lead me to think that it is
" Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection" material. What is, though? I have a problem with the rating criteria, and I know many ignore it or interpret it their own way. I treat 4 stars as what I consider really "essential" to my collection, and what I find the best of those essential ones I think of as sublime masterpieces.

Interesting that it's as highly rated at progfreak as it is (due to the PA people overlap -- PA collabs commonly use that site -- course one was you and you've rated it at a few places): http://progfreak.com/Torman-Maxt-The-Problem-of-Pain-Part-1,_dbe,albums,_auto_6691348.xhtml

Only a few rated it there, but is has a high rating:

Green arrow: all basic tags (rating, main genre and prog status) have been assigned.
5 months ago, rushfan4

7.5
Prog Hard Rock/Metal
Green arrow: all basic tags (rating, main genre and prog status) have been assigned.
3 years ago, Lofcaudio

7.1
Prog Metal
Green arrow: all basic tags (rating, main genre and prog status) have been assigned.
3 years ago, Windhawk

8.2
Prog Rock/Metal

What are some sites, other than progarchives and rateyourmusic, where it's been reviewed by at least a few people? How many sites did you find with positive reviews where it was reviewed by multiple people (and are unique reviews -- not just copy/ paste jobs from places they posted them before, as I've seen a fair amount of repetition of reviews at various sites)?


Edited by Logan - October 17 2010 at 19:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 22:24

Pretty interesting interview. Hope the controversy between the band and reviewers end soon.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 01:05
Good on him, I disagree with most of his views, but it takes balls to speak out like that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 04:44
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:



Now, about we having an agenda, the only ones who have an agenda are Torman Maxt, being that it's a Christian band, with the purpose of spreading a religious message...Don't imply this is wrong "per se" (even when I believe religion is for the church, not for rock stages), but this is an agenda, so it's a paradox that in the interview they mention we have one.

BTW: .I'm not anti Christian, as a fact I'm a Christian, but everything has a place IMO.

Iván



I don't want to fight or anything, but just challenge this view.

I think its a strange "rule" to apply that religion is not for rock stages. How is a concept album retelling the story of Job different from Aphrodite's Child 666, based on Saint John’s Revelation? If it works, as with 666 and atleast for me; Woven Hand, Albert Ayler or Allah-praising jazz artists such as Pharoah Sanders mm..., I much rather have a spiritual approach than a bunch of love songs.

While I don't understand how its even possible for a grown (and educated?) man like Mr. Massaro to actually believe that ...
The Bible [all the books of the Old and New Testaments] is the true written message of God to us... I believe the authors of the Bible were inspired by God and are therefore completely trustworthy..., isn't a religious agenda still just as valid as any other agendas?

I'm not writing about Torman Maxt here, but in general (
Out of curiosity I listened to three songs on their Myspace page, and it just confirmed what I already sort of knew: that its not my bag. But that's beside the point)
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 04:47
Back for more? Good, I love a masochist.
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

EDIT: This situation is what probably ended killed the "featured band of the month" thing, if you stop to think about it for one second.
No, we've had several featured bands of the month since then and nobody has cared. We even got Mono to push their new DVD for a month, oddly enough. As far as I can tell, the frequent PA visitor has very little engagement with the front page, which is the problem moreso.
Quote I must say that, for this album, my opinion about it was not a bit influecenced by its actual grade.
So you are the only one free from corrupting influences while we plebs wallow in the dirt? People definitely bothered to pile on because of the star thing, but that's not the same thing as hating it because other people do. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 07:04
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Back for more? Good, I love a masochist.
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

EDIT: This situation is what probably ended killed the "featured band of the month" thing, if you stop to think about it for one second.
No, we've had several featured bands of the month since then and nobody has cared. We even got Mono to push their new DVD for a month, oddly enough. As far as I can tell, the frequent PA visitor has very little engagement with the front page, which is the problem moreso.
 
You know, a deadly cancer doesn't instantly kill somebody, in spite of the fact that one will sooner or later die from it. This was the cancer of the featured band. Besides, this website has a much higher number of dayly hits than we have members, so even if every single collab, reviewer and habitual users of the site, much like yourself, don't go though the front page, a myriad of people still do, so that is obviously not the problem.
 
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I must say that, for this album, my opinion about it was not a bit influecenced by its actual grade.
So you are the only one free from corrupting influences while we plebs wallow in the dirt? People definitely bothered to pile on because of the star thing, but that's not the same thing as hating it because other people do. 
 
Like it or not, other opinions do matter when you pick up something. If that was not so, we would not have to classify and rate everything we do, discover or know in order to systematize and ease the job of constructing an opinion and knowlege about it. That goes for science, philosophy and possibly every aspect of our lives. So, yes, if a lot of people hate something, it will be only natural that other people with little knowlege of such thing will have a stronger tendency NOT to like it. Same thing if many people like something. 
 
That is a fact, proven by scientific research over the course of decades. That is how we as human beings behave, wether you like (or care to understand) or not. I was just trying to say that I went beyond that simple inertia and gave a legitimate try to the band. Their music is not a groundbraking masterpiece, but it is far from being as bad as it is portraited here.


Edited by CCVP - October 18 2010 at 07:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 10:29
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:



I don't want to fight or anything, but just challenge this view.

I think its a strange "rule" to apply that religion is not for rock stages. How is a concept album retelling the story of Job different from Aphrodite's Child 666, based on Saint John’s Revelation? If it works, as with 666 and atleast for me; Woven Hand, Albert Ayler or Allah-praising jazz artists such as Pharoah Sanders mm..., I much rather have a spiritual approach than a bunch of love songs.

666 is absolutely and radically different to what Torman Maxt do, while Aphrodite Child take the St. John Book of Revelation as a theme and develops a work without any attempt of praising or convincing (As a fact they were banned from 1970 to 1972 because of the controversial concept), Torman Maxt is doing evangelism and trying to praise.

Just listen infinity by Irene Papas and tell me if that 5 minutes orgasm will convince anybody about religion.

This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle.

Spiritual approach is great, listen Supper's Ready or some Jon Anderson's works, but they ae not doing religious proselytism.

Music must be free, not an instrument, at least for me...I prefer the love songs, there are some good ones, like the above mentioned Supper's Ready, which is basically a love song mixed with other themes.

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

While I don't understand how its even possible for a grown (and educated?) man like Mr. Massaro to actually believe that ...The Bible [all the books of the Old and New Testaments] is the true written message of God to us... I believe the authors of the Bible were inspired by God and are therefore completely trustworthy..., isn't a religious agenda still just as valid as any other agendas? 

There we differ, I do understand how he believes and respect his beliefs, but I don't agree that this message is presented in an album without a warning or a label telling people what is it about, so they can avoid it if they want.

Now, about having a religious agenda, I don't know if it's good or bad, the problem is that this guys say that we in Prog Archive has an agenda and that this is wrong, when the only ones with a clear agenda are them.-

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

I'm not writing about Torman Maxt here, but in general (Out of curiosity I listened to three songs on their Myspace page, and it just confirmed what I already sort of knew: that its not my bag. But that's beside the point)

Of course it's besides of the point, I wrote my review and said specifically why I rated the album with one star....Terrible drums, worst vocal and even worst choirs, the rest of the band (IN MY OPINION) is in the level of pub band.

I don't agree with the fact of selling an album to promote any faith, but this hasn't influenced my rating.

Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 10:43
I can't see anything wrong with selling an album to promote faith, it doesn't affect me.

Anyway i heard the album now and I can honestly say it's not that bad...3 stars possibly. Although lyrically its not my thing and its a little repetitious, but I suppose thats the themes recuring.

Yeah..its Ok and I will play it again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 10:55
As I said hundred times, I listen all day to music composed in part to praise god, music of the highest caliber ever. (see my first image in my signature). I actually look like a religious madman for the amount of versions and recordings of his religious works. Religion is not the issue here. 

The issue is that the band SUCKS. The drummer STINKS. The music is unoriginal to the extreme. 

But even that is an opinion. My real problem is people coming more than ONE year after the problem  to attack reviewers who listened to the album and wrote negative reviews. Why didn't you do it back then? Why now? 

I don't know who has the agenda here, who is trying to "defend their territory". 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle.


More than contradictory I think it sounds silly and not really thought through. Religion and art has been thightly connected for hundreds and even thousands of years. Bach's St. Matthews Passion just a jingle? Any Stabat Mater a jingle?  How about Pharoah Sanders The Creator Has A Master Plan? And the music of Area, Art Bears, Henry Cow & Matching Mole are nothing but communist jingles?
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:36
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Back for more? Good, I love a masochist.
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

EDIT: This situation is what probably ended killed the "featured band of the month" thing, if you stop to think about it for one second.
No, we've had several featured bands of the month since then and nobody has cared. We even got Mono to push their new DVD for a month, oddly enough. As far as I can tell, the frequent PA visitor has very little engagement with the front page, which is the problem moreso.
 
You know, a deadly cancer doesn't instantly kill somebody, in spite of the fact that one will sooner or later die from it. This was the cancer of the featured band. Besides, this website has a much higher number of dayly hits than we have members, so even if every single collab, reviewer and habitual users of the site, much like yourself, don't go though the front page, a myriad of people still do, so that is obviously not the problem.
 
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I must say that, for this album, my opinion about it was not a bit influecenced by its actual grade.
So you are the only one free from corrupting influences while we plebs wallow in the dirt? People definitely bothered to pile on because of the star thing, but that's not the same thing as hating it because other people do. 
 
Like it or not, other opinions do matter when you pick up something. If that was not so, we would not have to classify and rate everything we do, discover or know in order to systematize and ease the job of constructing an opinion and knowlege about it. That goes for science, philosophy and possibly every aspect of our lives. So, yes, if a lot of people hate something, it will be only natural that other people with little knowlege of such thing will have a stronger tendency NOT to like it. Same thing if many people like something. 
 
That is a fact, proven by scientific research over the course of decades. That is how we as human beings behave, wether you like (or care to understand) or not. I was just trying to say that I went beyond that simple inertia and gave a legitimate try to the band. Their music is not a groundbraking masterpiece, but it is far from being as bad as it is portraited here.
 
But you have to understand that that's an opinion, not a fact. I think it's every bit as bad as it's portrayed here, and some people like you don't. I also write for Sea of Tranquility, which gave a positive review, and I still hate the album. People give Foxtrot, Images & Words, and Close to the Edge 1 star reviews. It's all based on personal opinion, not whether or not other people like it.
 
For example, check out my review of Pain of Salvation's Scarsick. If I remember correctly, I am the ONLY collaborator on PA to give that album a 5 star review. I don't give a sh*t what other people think, and I don't care how scientists think my mind works.
 
Of course, there is some truth to what you've said, but it's not the complete superlative statement that you make it seem. I can't speak for everyone, but my opinion is rarely, if ever influenced by what others think, especially when it comes to reviewing.

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:38
I can't help but agree 100% with the previous poster. It's almost an insult to call any religious music a "jingle"... 

Try listening to the Mass in B minor and tell me if it's just a jingle.... 

I insist, the issue here is not and never was religion. It's the music. Which is terrible. It's the artist, who attacks whoever dares not to praise him. And some people in PA, who play to his games... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:41
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle.


More than contradictory I think it sounds silly and not really thought through. Religion and art has been thightly connected for hundreds and even thousands of years. Bach's St. Matthews Passion just a jingle? Any Stabat Mater a jingle?  How about Pharoah Sanders The Creator Has A Master Plan? And the music of Area, Art Bears, Henry Cow & Matching Mole are nothing but communist jingles?
 
I have to say that I completely disagree with Ivan here, and I now consider myself an atheist.
 
Religious, anti-religious, satanic, sexual, violent, etc,etc. lyrics do not bother me. As long as they're of high-quality and are well-written, I'm fine. I do tend to think that Christian lyrics are extremely cheesy sometimes, but I'm not against them on principle.

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:42
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I can't help but agree 100% with the previous poster. It's almost an insult to call any religious music a "jingle"... 

Try listening to the Mass in B minor and tell me if it's just a jingle.... 

I insist, the issue here is not and never was religion. It's the music. Which is terrible. It's the artist, who attacks whoever dares not to praise him. And some people in PA, who play to his games... 
 
Well said, Teo! Clap I completely agree with you!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:55
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle.


More than contradictory I think it sounds silly and not really thought through. Religion and art has been thightly connected for hundreds and even thousands of years. Bach's St. Matthews Passion just a jingle? Any Stabat Mater a jingle?  How about Pharoah Sanders The Creator Has A Master Plan? And the music of Area, Art Bears, Henry Cow & Matching Mole are nothing but communist jingles?

Bach made music to praise God, but not full of EXPRESS messages to guide people to a determined believe in something determinate.

Now, for the T, you consider insulting to call EXPRESS MESSAGES IN FAVOUR OFF  DETERMINED RELIGION a jingle, but that's mostly what it is

Quote

Jingle: a short simple tune, often with words, which is easy to remember and is used to advertise a product on the radio or television 

Despite not being short is a tune WITH WORDS used to ADVERTISE A PRODUCT CALLED RELIGION....ERGO IT'S A JINGLE

The main reason for creating music, should be art, the main reason to create a jingle is to sell people a product...You can reach your conclusions easily, I heard lots of Christian musicians saying their main interest is to share the message of God...This is a jingle, no matter if I agree with the message.

Praising God with the music as Bach did, is perfect (The masses don't have any explicit  message to convince people), it's artistic music primarily done by JSB with all his skills  to praise God, not to evangelize people with explicit messages) , but ADVERTISING a product called Christianity and trying to sell it to people using pseudo artistic music is not.

Watch the 700 CLUB or EWTN (Catholic as me), both programs are full of so called artists who's main interest is to sell this product named Christianity through popular music, leaving art behind.

I can't be offending anybody, because I would be offending what my religion does, but I have my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to disagree with this practice.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 18 2010 at 12:01
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:57
BTW: As I said before, even when I disagree with Christian Rock....I rated the album with one star because the drumming, vocals and choirs are terrible and because the music is unimaginative and repetitive.

Their religious message has no relation with the rating, if they did amazing music I would had to accept it, but this is not the case.

Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle.


More than contradictory I think it sounds silly and not really thought through. Religion and art has been thightly connected for hundreds and even thousands of years. Bach's St. Matthews Passion just a jingle? Any Stabat Mater a jingle?  How about Pharoah Sanders The Creator Has A Master Plan? And the music of Area, Art Bears, Henry Cow & Matching Mole are nothing but communist jingles?

Bach made music to praise God, but not full of EXPRESS messages to guide people to a determined believe in something determinate.

Now, for the T, you consider insulting to call EXPRESS MESSAGES IN FAVOUR OFF  DETERMINED RELIGION a jingle, but that's mostly what it is

Quote

Jingle: a short simple tune, often with words, which is easy to remember and is used to advertise a product on the radio or television 

Despite not being short is a tune WITH WORDS used to ADVERTISE A PRODUCT CALLED RELIGION....ERGO IT'S A JINGLE

The main reason for creating music, should be art, the main reason to create a jingle is to sell people a product...You can reach your conclusions easily, I heard lots of Christian musicians saying their main interest is to share the message of God...This is a jingle, no matter if I agree with the message.

Praising God with the music as Bach did, is perfect, but ADVERTISING a product called Christianity and trying to sell it to people using artistic music is not.

Watch the 700 CLUB or EWTN (Catholic as me), both programs are full of so called artists who's main interest is to sell this product named Christianity through popular music, leaving art behind.

I can't be offending anybody, because I would be offending what my religion does, but I have my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to disagree with this practice.

Iván
I agree with your given right Ivan. I disagree with your conclusions though. Music can be used for anything. Belive me I hold it in a special sacred place in my heart and brain, but I know art and music is a human product and as such can be propaganda. The majestic "propaganda" music of Shostakovich for example (not that he loved doing the propaganda but anyway) can't be deeper and more profound... Another example of my not having problems with music used for "selling" something... 

And Ivan, why you always have to use bolds and caps? Wink 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: As I said before, even when I disagree with Christian Rock....I rated the album with one star because the drumming, vocals and choirs are terrible and because the music is unimaginative and repetitive.

Their religious message has no relation with the rating, if they did amazing music I would had to accept it, but this is not the case.

Iván

The same as I. The album sucks. Period. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:06
I think the debate is less about religion than questioning the integrity of some very good reviewers, which is what you are doing when you ascribe motive and suggest they are not rating the music as they truly believe it to be.  Perhaps this occured somewhere, but I find it hard to believe all 12-14 Collabs in question, some who were not even present during the controversy, have intentionally downrated several stars to punish this band.  Guys like Umur and Jeff especially, seem very objective to me and unlikely to be "colored" by a desire to bash. 
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