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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:12
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: As I said before, even when I disagree with Christian Rock....I rated the album with one star because the drumming, vocals and choirs are terrible and because the music is unimaginative and repetitive.

Their religious message has no relation with the rating, if they did amazing music I would had to accept it, but this is not the case.

Iván

The same as I. The album sucks. Period. 

I'll give you an example, Neil Morse, I don't agree with his message, I believe in some points is at least aggressive with Catholicism, but he does outstanding MUSIC, so I haven't made a negative rating of his albums because I would be saying a lie..

I remembered that I was a fan of Silvio Rodriguez (.you must know him), he does wonderful music, but he uses it to support Fidel Castro's regimen, this is also a jingle.

Do you believe it's OK?

And what's the difference between both?

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 18 2010 at 12:13
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:14
Music to put a message across is not a jingle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rocktopus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:15
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle.


More than contradictory I think it sounds silly and not really thought through. Religion and art has been thightly connected for hundreds and even thousands of years. Bach's St. Matthews Passion just a jingle? Any Stabat Mater a jingle?  How about Pharoah Sanders The Creator Has A Master Plan? And the music of Area, Art Bears, Henry Cow & Matching Mole are nothing but communist jingles?

Bach made music to praise God, but not full of EXPRESS messages to guide people to a determined believe in something determinate.


Say what you will, but the main difference between an old mass by Bach and Torman Maxt's concept album based on the Book of Job, is the quality. No matter how much of a genius Bach was, his religious music is still promoting christianity (and quite effectively too, especially when hearing it live performed by over 100 people in a church). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:18
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

 
Say what you will, but the main difference between an old mass by Bach and Torman Maxt's concept album based on the Book of Job, is the quality. No matter how much of a genius Bach was, his religious music is still promoting christianity (and quite effectively too, especially when hearing it live performed by over 100 people in a church). 

Bach's music was originally made to be played in a church, a place where people go to praise, not in a rock stage where people go to enjoy music and will receive a subliminal message.

And of course, quality is a huuuuuuuuuge difference between both.

Iván
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Livin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:31
To be fair, Torman Maxt did not resurrect this issue, we did. they were reluctant to give an interview because of the bad experience they had, but were persuaded to do so. Let's not make misguided accusations here; we asked the questions, they just answered them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:39
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

You know, a deadly cancer doesn't instantly kill somebody, in spite of the fact that one will sooner or later die from it. This was the cancer of the featured band. Besides, this website has a much higher number of dayly hits than we have members, so even if every single collab, reviewer and habitual users of the site, much like yourself, don't go though the front page, a myriad of people still do, so that is obviously not the problem.
Well it was the first featured band I think you are ascribing too much to this. You have no idea how it would have gone if people hadn't jumped on the first one. Nobody said mean things about 3RDEGREE. I think people aren't doing it because they don't think it's worth it, but you shouldn't definitively state that something is obvious when neither of us have access to any relevant data. 
Quote Like it or not, other opinions do matter when you pick up something. If that was not so, we would not have to classify and rate everything we do, discover or know in order to systematize and ease the job of constructing an opinion and knowlege about it. That goes for science, philosophy and possibly every aspect of our lives. So, yes, if a lot of people hate something, it will be only natural that other people with little knowlege of such thing will have a stronger tendency NOT to like it. Same thing if many people like something. 
 
That is a fact, proven by scientific research over the course of decades. That is how we as human beings behave, wether you like (or care to understand) or not. I was just trying to say that I went beyond that simple inertia and gave a legitimate try to the band. Their music is not a groundbraking masterpiece, but it is far from being as bad as it is portraited here.
Yes, that is what caused people to want to write a bunch of reviews rather than just ignore it. But I find it insulting and wrong to say that people are not being sincere in their opinion. Your final sentence is just your opinion, and it's one that's obviously not shared by a lot of the people here: the opinions of people on other websites has nothing to do with it. Maybe you have just been inured to terrible, generic music by evaluating bands on the prog metal team? ;-)


Edited by Henry Plainview - October 18 2010 at 12:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:43
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

To be fair, Torman Maxt did not resurrect this issue, we did. they were reluctant to give an interview because of the bad experience they had, but were persuaded to do so. Let's not make misguided accusations here; we asked the questions, they just answered them.

I even said I understand how and artist can attack negative reviewers (not that I think it makes any artist look like an intelligent person anyway). What has been said HERE is what has troubled me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toroddfuglesteg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:56

I would like to expand on what Easy Livin says.   

I originally got in touch with the band because I thought they had an interesting story to tell (and a new upcoming album) which would enhance ProgArchives. Contact established and we had a frank exchange of emails about mine and other reviews. During the whole process, I advised, even urged the band to express their honest views in the interview. They have evidently taken my advice.   

I am very happy with the Torman Maxt interview and fully responsible for it's publication and the reactions it has caused. I am also satisfied with my own review of their album.   

 



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - October 18 2010 at 12:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 13:13
Good job Torodd Thumbs Up You did what a good interviewer does. Nobody, at least not I, has any negative feelings about this issue regarding your work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLocke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 15:04
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

To be fair, Torman Maxt did not resurrect this issue, we did. they were reluctant to give an interview because of the bad experience they had, but were persuaded to do so. Let's not make misguided accusations here; we asked the questions, they just answered them.

 . . . and then veered off in to old, tender territory by making wild accusations about specific reviewers on this site. I don't recall the question being posed: ''So, do you think there was a conspiracy to go against your album unfairly?'' 

If that's how he feels, then that's how he feels. And frankly, I don't blame him. The amount of one-star reviews is astonishingly insulting and unrealistic. And yet, I know that nobody here would ever unfairly rate an album in the negative direction. So, I can understand where the musician's opinion comes from, but I also understand the outrage being expressed by folks here who felt attacked by the accusations, and the other forum members who hopped over to the guy's side in all of this. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 15:29
Very interesting.......I broke a "rule" of mine in that I will usually listen to anything I find new here without regard to reviews. But I remember this band and the 1-2 star ratings it received and figured not to give them a try. I have just downloaded part 1 and part 2, just to see what all the hoopla is about, will take a listen tonight.
 
I think Teo has a valid point....my only question is why are the PA powers that be giving this band the extra attention/2nd chance? What about all the other 1-2 star ratings?
 
Also Torodd...I do think that was a very good interview, for sure worth 4 stars in my book.
Anyhow I am just a peon...but this is interesting from many perspectives.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 16:23
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

I would like to expand on what Easy Livin says.   

I originally got in touch with the band because I thought they had an interesting story to tell (and a new upcoming album) which would enhance ProgArchives. Contact established and we had a frank exchange of emails about mine and other reviews. During the whole process, I advised, even urged the band to express their honest views in the interview. They have evidently taken my advice.   

I am very happy with the Torman Maxt interview and fully responsible for it's publication and the reactions it has caused. I am also satisfied with my own review of their album.   

As I said before Torodd, you did an excellent job, you achieved something not even professional interviewers do, the band member answered you something that otherwise he would had kept for himself, and that's excellent.

You are not to be blamed for what they say, by the contrary, you have to receive a congratulation if you can make an interviewed answer his whole truth without hiding anything.

GREAT JOB.

Iván


            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCVP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 16:44
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

You know, a deadly cancer doesn't instantly kill somebody, in spite of the fact that one will sooner or later die from it. This was the cancer of the featured band. Besides, this website has a much higher number of dayly hits than we have members, so even if every single collab, reviewer and habitual users of the site, much like yourself, don't go though the front page, a myriad of people still do, so that is obviously not the problem.

Well it was the first featured band I think you are ascribing too much to this. You have no idea how it would have gone if people hadn't jumped on the first one. Nobody said mean things about 3RDEGREE. I think people aren't doing it because they don't think it's worth it, but you shouldn't definitively state that something is obvious when neither of us have access to any relevant data.


I think you are thinking about this too much in a mathematical way. Human relations are not that simple. The first impression matters more than you are giving it credit for and this was one hell of a bad first impression: the weight of having such a bad feedback in such a short ammount of time do influence other people to bet on advertising their music here or not.

Why do you think that more and more artists are trying to get volunteers to review their music instead of advertising it on the website? Free feedback? OK, that's reasonable enough, but limiting the knowlege of their music to people who individually check reviews is much different than having a heading piece of advertisement on a website that accessed more than 50k times a month. That's more than 1.600 people of a very specific audience visiting PA everyday. Still think it doesn't matter?

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

[quote]Like it or not, other opinions do matter when you pick up something. If that was not so, we would not have to classify and rate everything we do, discover or know in order to systematize and ease the job of constructing an opinion and knowlege about it. That goes for science, philosophy and possibly every aspect of our lives. So, yes, if a lot of people hate something, it will be only natural that other people with little knowlege of such thing will have a stronger tendency NOT to like it. Same thing if many people like something. 
 
That is a fact, proven by scientific research over the course of decades. That is how we as human beings behave, wether you like (or care to understand) or not. I was just trying to say that I went beyond that simple inertia and gave a legitimate try to the band. Their music is not a groundbraking masterpiece, but it is far from being as bad as it is portraited here.
Yes, that is what caused people to want to write a bunch of reviews rather than just ignore it. But I find it insulting and wrong to say that people are not being sincere in their opinion. Your final sentence is just your opinion, and it's one that's obviously not shared by a lot of the people here: the opinions of people on other websites has nothing to do with it. Maybe you have just been inured to terrible, generic music by evaluating bands on the prog metal team? ;-)


Where the hell did you pulled that from? I did not say people were not sincere, don't put words in my mouth. Being influenced is not the same as NOT being sincere and you are smart enough to know the difference. And the info that other sites had such an uncoditional contrary opinion compared to PA shows how important the firsts opinions are, how influential they can be, not that people were fooled, suckered or lied.

Besides, try and keep the ad hominem out of this, thank you very much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 17:31
I think Tony seems like a sympathetic guy and I fully understand why it hurts that so many people dislike the music he and his brothers make. I also understand Tony´s suspicion that some reviewers bashed the album because of their unhappiness with the deleted reviews. Personally I was very new to the site at the time this happened and didn´t really understand the fuzz. I just downloaded the album out of curiosity and wrote a review based on what I heard on the album. The situation did not affect my rating one bit. I just really felt the album was an album way below average all things considered ( production, musicianship, lyrics and songwriting). I would probably write a less harsh review today ( I´ve learned a bit of diplomacy in the years since I started writing) but my rating would be the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mellotron Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 22:45
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

I would like to expand on what Easy Livin says.   

I originally got in touch with the band because I thought they had an interesting story to tell (and a new upcoming album) which would enhance ProgArchives. Contact established and we had a frank exchange of emails about mine and other reviews. During the whole process, I advised, even urged the band to express their honest views in the interview. They have evidently taken my advice.   

I am very happy with the Torman Maxt interview and fully responsible for it's publication and the reactions it has caused. I am also satisfied with my own review of their album.   

As I said before Torodd, you did an excellent job, you achieved something not even professional interviewers do, the band member answered you something that otherwise he would had kept for himself, and that's excellent.

You are not to be blamed for what they say, by the contrary, you have to receive a congratulation if you can make an interviewed answer his whole truth without hiding anything.

GREAT JOB.

Iván


 
 
Am i missing something? What did the Tony say that he would have normally kept to himself? There were good questions and good answers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2010 at 23:01
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

 
 
Am i missing something? What did the Tony say that he would have normally kept to himself? There were good questions and good answers.

1.- Normally no person giving an interview for a determined site, will say this site has an agenda against him.

2.- It's amazing for a band member to admit he asked that the bad reviews were deleted because he paid for advertising.:

Quote So that prompted a discussion about that, because we were paying for the advertising, that for the month of May only, that ProgArchives would hold off on posting negative reviews

A musician buys advertising, not the honest opinion of the people

Now, the questions were excellent, the answers were terrible.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2010 at 04:29

So what, we're not allowed to give bad reviews to albums about Christ-inanity because it just means we're bashing the religion? Couldn't it be that the music sucks?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2010 at 04:31
BTW, I think it's hysterical that the last track on that album was called "A Great Silence". After what came before it, a silence would be pretty great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rocktopus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2010 at 05:16
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

So what, we're not allowed to give bad reviews to albums about Christ-inanity because it just means we're bashing the religion? Couldn't it be that the music sucks?



Textbook introduces a brand new perspective here. Always interesting when someone who hasn't really been paying attention to the discussion comes along and says something really fresh and original.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2010 at 05:27

I think if I actually read through every post in every thread here before I responded myself, I would leave the forum.

 
IT WOULD TOO BE A BAD THING
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