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Topic ClosedTrilogy vs. Cinema Show

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Poll Question: Which is your favorite of the two?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
39 [35.45%]
71 [64.55%]
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Trilogy vs. Cinema Show
    Posted: October 27 2010 at 17:17
Trilogy by miles, The cinema show like the rest of Selling england is boring. And Collins sing on it and makes it even worse.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 15:57
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

If its the studio versions we are comparing then ELP's wins for me just on sheer instrumental power if nothing else. I love the ensemble feel to this which is much better than many other ELP tracks. However if you put up the Second's Out version against it then the gap is a lot smaller. Chester Thompson and Phil Collins take it to a different level making the album version almost redundant for me.

 
Chester and Phil don't take it anywhere on Seconds Out. That would be Bill Bruford and Phil.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 15:05
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

If its the studio versions we are comparing then ELP's wins for me just on sheer instrumental power if nothing else. I love the ensemble feel to this which is much better than many other ELP tracks. However if you put up the Second's Out version against it then the gap is a lot smaller. Chester Thompson and Phil Collins take it to a different level making the album version almost redundant for me.



Agreed. The Seconds Out version is much better!
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 15:04
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'll go for Cinema Show.

Trilogy is among my favourite ELP songs though. Does anyone else think Lake sounds a little like Art Garfunkel, when singing in the gentle opening part of the song?

He certainly does! Although I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it.....


Phew! Not just me then..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 14:54
Two epic works and very hard to decide; I voted finaly and not by much for Cinema; Trilogy has excelent classic influence, it seems like a modern Mussorsky.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2010 at 22:11
Two different animals entirely, I'm afraid. And also two different genres of prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2010 at 08:08
Much as I like Trilogy it really can't compete with Cinema Show and THE prog keyboard solo.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2010 at 08:05
OK, I’m totally off topic, but I thought this could interest you, and since this is the thread where the disussion about T. S. Eliot started, I post it here.

I wrote a mail to my brother — who is a literary critic — and asked him how the lines quoted from The Waste Land normally are perceived. Here is the answer he sent me (translated from Norwegian to English by myself; any mistakes are mine, not his):

@font-face { font-family: "Times New Roman"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }table.MsoNormalTable { font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }

Among the readings I know, there are none that perceives these lines as a description of a rape. Admittedly, it could be understood as what some feminists call “negligent rape”, but this concept is so questionable that it’s better to avoid it. Anyway, Eliot does here agree with D. H. Lawrence, a man he otherwise doesn’t have much in common with: Modern sexuality is unpleasant, mechanic — especially for the female part. The woman in the poem feels no desire whatsoever to go through it, but she still yields to the man’s passionless assertiveness; the scene becomes a highly discouraging example of “modern love” or “love in the 20th century”. In the lines following the ones you quote, this is stressed even more:


She turns and looks a moment in the glass,

Hardly aware of her departed lover;

Her brain allows one half-formed thought to pass: 

‘Well, now that’s done: and I’m glad it’s over.’

When lovely woman stoops to folly and 

Paces about her room again, alone,

She smooths her hair with automatic hand,

And puts a record on the gramophone.

 

A victim of a rape would hardly be that indifferent, and as far as I can see, this woman is not a prostitute either. She has taken a lover because it’s fashionable; modern, liberated people should do things that — but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they enjoy it. We can only guess what the strictly conservative Eliot would have thought of the sexual revolution of our times — a revolution he certainly witnessed the prelude to — though it’s obvious that he wouldn’t be very happy about it. And strictly speaking, you have to grant him a point; for sure, this sex fixation, that’s been accompanied by an insane fixation on the ego, has not made us more human. Interestingly enough, this has happened in a time where the status of the ego has been challenged philosophically in many different ways.

 

Furthermore, I wonder if Banks and Rutherford has delivered what Harold Bloom calls a “strong misreading” of Eliot’s lines — actually the only kind of reading Bloom thinks is worth anything at all. They are less concerned with soulless sexuality than with an eternally valid erotic play that — as the reference to Romeo and Juliet suggests — very often ends in tragedy (West Side Story has probably some significance here as well). Moreover, in The Cinema Show Tiresias gets a much more vital and vitalizing role than in Eliot’s poem: In The Waste Land, to a strong degree he (she) connotes an erotic/sexual fatigue that’s just as present in both sexes; the song seems more like a feministic myth where the female principle is identified with Gaia. Thus, The Cinema Show can be understood in the same way as Hart Crane’s grand epic poem (or series of lyrical poems) The Bridge — that Crane himself viewed as a more optimistic version of The Waste Land.

 

Well, I’m not altogether sure that this is a valuable input to the discussion at ProgArchives. However, what it once again shows, is how well schooled or — in the best sense of the word — cultivated these boys in Genesis are, something they share with members of the other British prog- and artrock bands. So when I still from time to time see intellectual skeptics claim that rock lyrics exclusively contain formulas like “I love you”, I wonder what side of the moon they inhabit — it’s certainly not the dark side. They can’t be especially close to the edge either, and they have still not found out that the lamb lies down on Broadway (titles by King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator spring to my mind as well, but I’d better stop while the going is good).




Edited by refugee - October 26 2010 at 08:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2010 at 10:42

The Cinema Show

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2010 at 10:33
^^ I also thought that she could be a prostitute (working as a typist and earning extra money in her spare time), but the two lines starting with "The time is now propitious" seem to go against that. And you’re right; Eliot is probably deliberately ambiguous — which is often a hallmark of great poetry (I nearly wrote "pottery" LOL).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2010 at 05:46

The Cinema Show for me.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2010 at 04:38
Originally posted by refugee refugee wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Gandalff Gandalff wrote:

Originally posted by Chela Chela wrote:

Only one of these songs takes me to my happy place.
 
 
Namely?
Probably The Cinema Show although I read somewhere (probably on here) that the subject matter of the song is apparently about rape.
Trilogy is broadly about love lost and moving on and is nicely resolved, but people generally don't say ELP tracks take them to a happy place!


About rape? Well, there might be a connection since the lyrics are based on a passage from T. S. Eliot’s The Waste Land. You can read about it here (scroll down until you find Frosteeth’s post):

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/1625/

Is this the description of a rape? To me it doesn’t look like it: Though he "assaults" her and his caresses are "undesired", his hands "encounter no defence" and she seems to be more indifferent than anything else. I guess it all depends on how you define "rape".

To the poll question: I can’t vote. I’m not a huge fan of ELP, but Trilogy is amazing. So is The Cinema Show. Maybe I should toss a coin to settle the score?


 
That's a very interesting link. The full post:
 
Yeah, I know it's been over 2.5 years since someone (SurferDave) mentioned T.S. Eliot and over a year since anyone commented on this song at all, but just for the record, Cinema Show IS in fact a pastiche of T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland, at least in part. That is, it's not really about the Tiresias myth *directly* but rather a tongue-in-cheek version of the the scene between the clerk and typist in The Wasteland which refers to that myth. Rather than get into specifics, let me just quote the relevant part of the poem. Compare with the lyrics and you will see all the parallels and how Cinema Show is the cheerful, comedic counterpart to The Wasteland's bleak, tragic allusion to Tiresias as a symbol of gender duality. In the song it's all a matter of fun and conquest whereas in the poem it almost sounds like rape.


The typist home at teatime, clears her breakfast, lights
Her stove, and lays out food in tins.
Out of the window perilously spread
Her drying combinations touched by the sun's last rays,
On the divan are piled (at night her bed)
Stockings, slippers, camisoles, and stays.
I Tiresias, old man with wrinkled dugs
Perceived the scene, and foretold the rest -
I too awaited the expected guest.
He, the young man carbuncular, arrives,
A small house agent's clerk, with one bold stare,
One of the low on whom assurance sits
As a silk hat on a Bradford millionaire.
The time is now propitious, as he guesses,
The meal is ended, she is bored and tired,
Endeavours to engage her in caresses
Which still are unreproved, if undesired.
Flushed and decided, he assaults at once;
Exploring hands encounter no defence;
His vanity requires no response,
And makes a welcome of indifference.
(And I Tiresias have foresuffered all
Enacted on this same divan or bed;
I who have sat by Thebes below the wall
And walked among the lowest of the dead.)
Bestows one final patronising kiss,
And gropes his way, finding the stairs unlit . . .

Definition of rape - In criminal law, rape is an assault by a person involving sexual intercourse with another person without that person's consent
 
Its hard to say that this is therefore 'rape' by this definition as there is no evidence here that the subject has not consented.Deliberately ambiguous perhaps?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2010 at 10:23
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'll go for Cinema Show.

Trilogy is among my favourite ELP songs though. Does anyone else think Lake sounds a little like Art Garfunkel, when singing in the gentle opening part of the song?

He certainly does! Although I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it.....


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2010 at 07:29
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Gandalff Gandalff wrote:

Originally posted by Chela Chela wrote:

Only one of these songs takes me to my happy place.
 
 
Namely?
Probably The Cinema Show although I read somewhere (probably on here) that the subject matter of the song is apparently about rape.
Trilogy is broadly about love lost and moving on and is nicely resolved, but people generally don't say ELP tracks take them to a happy place!


About rape? Well, there might be a connection since the lyrics are based on a passage from T. S. Eliot’s The Waste Land. You can read about it here (scroll down until you find Frosteeth’s post):

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/1625/

Is this the description of a rape? To me it doesn’t look like it: Though he "assaults" her and his caresses are "undesired", his hands "encounter no defence" and she seems to be more indifferent than anything else. I guess it all depends on how you define "rape".

To the poll question: I can’t vote. I’m not a huge fan of ELP, but Trilogy is amazing. So is The Cinema Show. Maybe I should toss a coin to settle the score?


 
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I say nothing is nothing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2010 at 04:23
Trilogy. My first prog album.
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2010 at 03:38
Originally posted by Gandalff Gandalff wrote:

Originally posted by Chela Chela wrote:

Only one of these songs takes me to my happy place.
 
 
Namely?
Probably The Cinema Show although I read somewhere (probably on here) that the subject matter of the song is apparently about rape.
Trilogy is broadly about love lost and moving on and is nicely resolved, but people generally don't say ELP tracks take them to a happy place!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2010 at 03:33

If its the studio versions we are comparing then ELP's wins for me just on sheer instrumental power if nothing else. I love the ensemble feel to this which is much better than many other ELP tracks. However if you put up the Second's Out version against it then the gap is a lot smaller. Chester Thompson and Phil Collins take it to a different level making the album version almost redundant for me.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2010 at 02:54
Originally posted by Chela Chela wrote:

Only one of these songs takes me to my happy place.
 
 
Namely?
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2010 at 20:33
Only one of these songs takes me to my happy place.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2010 at 19:49
The Cinema Show
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