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Topic ClosedSeeking a more elegant definition for Prog

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David_D View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 16:05
 
Do you agree that the question how prog is, or has been, mostly understood is the best starting point for the defining proces? - This could be called a descriptive approach.
 
Or do you for some reasons consider another starting point, with certain purposes, to prefer? It could for instance be that the understanding of prog, shared of most people, is not correct, and it's therefore important to make a correct definition to educate people. Or another example here could be my own attempt for definition in my article, which I today think has been formulated much with the purpose of making a good structure for classifing prog, and of course the wish of making a broad definition. This approach could be called a normative one.
 
As an important question is, how and where to search to find an appropiate essence of prog, and that also depends on the purpose of the defining proces?


Edited by David_D - November 09 2010 at 16:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:18
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

 
 It could for instance be that the understanding of prog, shared of most people, is not correct, and it's therefore important to make a correct definition to educate people. Or another example here could be my own attempt for definition in my article, which I today think has been formulated much with the purpose of making a good structure for classifing prog, and of course the wish of making a broad definition. This approach could be called a normative one.
 
As an important question is, how and where to search to find an appropiate essence of prog, and that also depends on the purpose of the defining proces?


I completely agree with this. I would not say that the understanding of prog of most people is off target but that after the 70s, what is prog seems not so clear if we go by what does get called prog.  In any case, a definition to explain the genre rather than just sub genre baskets is very useful to educate people.

tamijo:  If I went by strictly what I 'feel'/consider as PROGRESSIVE rock, only a small percentage of the bands currently part of this database could be strictly considered progressive.  People will have different ideas of at what rock can be called progressive because, as Cert1fied explained in a lot of detail in his "Prog versus Progressive: is there a difference" thread, progressive is a sliding scale, not an identified and specific form of music like metal. Broadly speaking, anything above bare basic rock and roll is progressive in some sense and the question is typically over at what point is it progressive enough to be called prog rock and on what basis do we decide this cut-off.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:18
Respect Constant Innovation & Music Rules; also the "little" songs (leads) can be prog. Read the book Schubert The Progressive: History, Performance Practice, Analysis; by Brian Newbould.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:22
Originally posted by Nightshine Nightshine wrote:

Hey, I can sum it up real quick!


If it's liked by a bunch of stuck-up,  middle-aged people with absolutely no relevant contributions to music themselves, then it's prog!

:D
 
I would prefer to say that we're so empty inside that we have to find a justification to make sure that we feel good about ourselves through some music that supposedly meant more than just ... an excuse for me to get laid one more time!
 
Which for me it wasn't at all ... but it was for a lot of people nothing but dope sucking and chasing and then sex in its many permutations ... and that is the part that killed a lot of the music in the first place. People ended up confusing the good time with everything else and the music was forgotten ... and the best example of this is right in front of us ... 3 hours worth of it ... and in the end, it means nothing ... we're listening to an anthem we don't give merde about and all around us is nothing but trash and only a handful of people give a damn.
 
There is no sadder event in my life and the greatest shame of my generation that most people, in the end, did not give a damn about anything except have a good time! ... that is the sign of a fat, lazy and bored society ... where nothing means anything ... and is the main reason why "progressive" had a good start in London and could not in America ... some people gave a damn, but no one knows where they are and even today, many of those people are hiding in the wood work afraid to tell their very own children ... yeah ... I got stoned then ... and yeah ... you came about because we were stoned ...
 
You can not properly define music without it's time, and rock/jazz/blues is going to be come the greatest gift to music for the 20th century and us, the progressive nerds, are going to be left behind because we're too dam stuck up and not willing to help each other understand the history, the time and the place ... and to many folks, including your definition, the music is not an art ... it's just music that has nothing to do with art or the living or the time and place ... and to me, that is sad, and it hurts ... there is a lot of music that was created to wake you up ... and you are telling that very artist that he's stupid and that the music is sh*t, and had no meaning, because it doesn't fit your description and definition.
 
My apologies ... it's hard not to get upset about this. If you want to be eloquent and elegant, it is not about make-up ... it's about putting your words together in such a way ... that every one will go ... wow ... that is indeed far out and neat ... I think I'm gonna listen to some of it. But when the sentence and "idea" is vaccuous and you are defending it from a point of view of your own creation ... or one that was created by this board, or people that refuse to accept history, the time, the place and the arts that also did the same thing ... you are, in essence, denying a very part of your internal constitution and as such ... your definition will never be complete ... and capable of having the inner poetry of the heart ... yes, it has your desire and feel in it, but it does not have anything else, and as such it becomes an individual exercise, not a social cause.
 
It's just a bummer ... that we can not agree on anything to help make the music better ... I'm still fighting for the wrongs and the insults that our generation was given and marked for ... not all of us were so stoned and stupid and out of touch that we couldn't possibly know what music was right or wrong ... and meant more than just some bands that were in it for the fame.
 
Go see Woodstock again ... and sit from a distance ... and look at the visuals in the end during the anthem without the music (turn the sound down) ... and you will know what I mean ... that whole generation couldn't give a damn about the music, and many of them (today) live in denial, except the fame/farout factor of "I was there".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:32
I am not seeking to deny nor to forget Progressive Rock's history any more than I an seeking to deny or forget the history of Gestalt therapy.  But I do believe that the general public should be provided a useful general definition of such concepts, definitions that do not require them to go through a college course or a history lesson before they can begin to understand them.
 
And so, I was mainly seeking to articulate a definition that would be functional for a wide audience, something succint yet communicative, something generally utilitarian.
 
If you are asking whether I'm seeking to radically reinvent the way progressive rock music is generally understood, perceived or defined, my answer is "no". 
 
I currently believe that 99.9% (or more) of what most people consider to qualify as "progressive rock" is also accepted as "progressive rock" by this definition. 
 
Progressive Rock:  Music springing from or incorporating distinctive elements of the rock genre while expanding beyond its traditional musical limitations and constraints.
 
If it is guilty of any transgression, it is that it allows inclusion of musics that a few might argue should be excluded - but I don't really see that as a weakness at this point in time. 
 
As long as music meets the following two criteria, I think we would do very well to not spend time arguing over whether it qualifies as "progressive rock" or not.  From a pragmatic point of view, it appears to me as  though this approach is very consistent with the general orientation of PA.
 
 


Edited by progpositivity - November 09 2010 at 19:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:44
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
I completely agree with this. I would not say that the understanding of prog of most people is off target but that after the 70s, what is prog seems not so clear if we go by what does get called prog.  In any case, a definition to explain the genre rather than just sub genre baskets is very useful to educate people.
 
 
This is true and similar to what I said above in different terms.
 
The problem was a factor of many things coming together and going apart at the same time. One has to give credit to the FM radio rise in the late 60's and early 70's that was playing long cuts for helping get it into the radio for people to listen to. One has to give credit to a couple of periodicals in England that decided that the music was important -- whereas America did not have that and the teen magazines and the movie magazines continued with their star programs! ... it's still like that in America ... !!! 50 years later!
 
A lot of the "progressive" scenes were total artistic revolutions around a bunch of artists ... to state that NY didn't have a scene, of which the likes of Warhol, Velvet Underground, Burroughs, and others were probably the best example ... is bizarre ... it is by far one of the best examples ... but even then the likes of Iggy and the Ramones revolted against the "art" of it all then.
 
The genre's basket ... at this point is not necessary, until we have a concensus and design for the music history and we accept that things like In a Gadda Da Vida were actually progressive, but many here laugh, and it wasn't untiol 2 and 3 years later that the other "major" progressive artists took hold, and helped define what we like. San Francisco was major ... but they are all dead to drugs and disease and no one is going to write about it ... and Reagan made sure that they all burned in hell, so to speak.
 
In America, it was not about the art per se, even though many of us knew it was ... in America, the media turned it all into an anti-social story to make sure that nothing made it through to the thread of society ... and the only thing left today, is a tie die shirt, a peach sign ... and a 60 year old that we say he's silly and probably smoked too much dope!
 
We have to get past that part of the social segmentation and appreciate how each scene developed in many parts of the world. The scene in Tokyo, was no less alive than the one in London, but no one talks about it ... but at least the Sadistic Mika Band has a heck of a psychedelic album to show for it, making fun of American rock'n'roll! ... so the band must be wierd? ... or just did something because they had nothing better to do?
 
And the issue with the definition is that ... it is afraid to emcompass the world ... it has to specialize itself away from the rest of the world, and by doing that, when the music came from that world for the most part, in the end, you will take the sould out of the music ... and you will kill it even more.
 
Quote tamijo:  If I went by strictly what I 'feel'/consider as PROGRESSIVE rock, only a small percentage of the bands currently part of this database could be strictly considered progressive.
 
No kidding! And between you and I there is a lot of marginal stuff that I don't think should be there and some of the reviews are marginal and a friend of the band kind of review ... not about the music and its value.
 
And before we get to "prog", which is nothing but the harder rocking version of "progressive", we have to learn how to sit, have a cup of tea, and grab each other's best ... and put together the ultimate encyclopedia on the subject and the work at hand. I wish that the folks in the very board "foundation" were interested in that ... to help establish their site even more importantly ... but sadly I think about the art of it all, and not everyone else does. And some folks here think I need some more BM's! ... which is not saying much for theirs, specially when they are talking about a 60 year old man!
 
 
I would like to see one of us take these "stories" and examples and start putting together a nice chart that would show the parallels, from the various parts of the world ... and then step away  and look at those train lines ... and the definitions of what we are trying to create is about one track ... not all of them ... and that track could go the other way ... instead of us seeing the bigger mattrix and concept of all the tracks.
 
It can only happen when you expand your mind and ideas ... it can't when we're trying to cut down the size and the meaning of the term. In the end, the only definition that is going to show up is one that will be forgotten and laughed at a year later! We need to create one, that encompasses all of it, and is as good as the music was and is remembered ... so that 40 years from now ... some kiddies can say ... that was good .. that was really good ... !
 
The biggest problem with the majority of "prog" is that it's not about the "art" at all ... it's mostly about the "sound" and the "scene" ... and nothing else. Some folks have tried to expand it some, but in the end, those are arbitrary decisions and the same band can show up in 5 places and that is confusing to the all of us ... we either consider the artist "progressive" and he might do different things that could be considered this or that, or forget the whole thing ... but to say this person is this and then ignore The Incredible String Band, which is by far much more progressive than most of the bands listed in this board, shows yo how much people listen to hits ... and not the music ... and you know what? ... you do realize that the beginnings of "progressive" music had its design and foundation to get away from the "hits" and "pop music", and you are desecrating it by doing exactly what we need to get away from!
 
It's bizarre to say the least!


Edited by moshkito - November 09 2010 at 19:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:50
David suggested that we append the following to the end of our definition "... by adding elements from some other of the main music styles".  Thanks for the contribution David! 
 
This would give us:
 
Progressive Rock:  Music springing from or incorporating distinctive elements of the rock genre while expanding beyond its traditional musical limitations and constraints by adding elements from some other of the main music styles.
 
I'm certainly OK if someone wants to add that. 
 
The reason I have not done so myself yet is that I'm not so sure that adding from another "main music style" is the only way to successfully create progressive rock.  It is by far the most common way, but is it the only way?  If there are other ways to create progressive rock music, I don't want to exclude them on the basis of them not having added from another main music style.
 
For example, someone like Brian Eno seems to have created progressive rock by having the vision to strategically remove elements rather than by adding them. 
 
And what about the person who expands beyond the traditional limitations of rock by introducing something incredibly visionary - or by adding something from another music style that is not deemed a "main" music style? 
 
Admittedly these instances are quite rare, so it doesn't become an issue all that often.  Even so, those are my concerns about requiring music to "add elements from some other of the main music styles" in order to qualify as progressive rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:58
Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

 
Progressive Rock:  Music springing from or incorporating distinctive elements of the rock genre while expanding beyond its traditional musical limitations and constraints.
 
 
As I mentioned before, it just bothers me that we are assuming that everyone knows what the "rock genre" is ... and I'm not sure that such a thing exists!
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 20:18
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

[
tamijo:  If I went by strictly what I 'feel'/consider as PROGRESSIVE rock, only a small percentage of the bands currently part of this database could be strictly considered progressive.  People will have different ideas of at what rock can be called progressive because, as Cert1fied explained in a lot of detail in his "Prog versus Progressive: is there a difference" thread, progressive is a sliding scale, not an identified and specific form of music like metal. Broadly speaking, anything above bare basic rock and roll is progressive in some sense and the question is typically over at what point is it progressive enough to be called prog rock and on what basis do we decide this cut-off.
 
I agree rogerthat.  It can be a very subjective and relative "moving target".  More artistic than what?  More complicated than what?  More innovative than what?  More dynamic than what?
 
For example, there is some "progressive rock" that sounds much less "progressive" to my ear now than it did 20 years ago when I first heard it.  The music is exactly the same, but I am now more familiar with 7/8 measures and phrasings, etc.  Perhaps the Rush songs "Limelight" or "Tom Sawyer" are decent examples?
 
I believe the genesis of the term "progressive rock" was to describe bands and songs that moved ("progressed") rock music beyond its traditional limitations and boundaries. 
 
This is a modest enough hurdle to allow most progressive rock music fans to have the bands and songs they love most included within the genre. 
 
And if songs have rock elements or roots and they do progress beyond the traditional limitations of rock, why not include them anyway?  On what basis do I exclude them?  Am I trying to impose a measure of "quality control" on the music I allow to be called "progressive rock"?  That would not seem wise. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2010 at 21:18
Originally posted by progpositivity progpositivity wrote:

....I'm not so sure that adding from another "main music style" is the only way to successfully create progressive rock.  It is by far the most common way, but is it the only way?  If there are other ways to create progressive rock music, I don't want to exclude them on the basis of them not having added from another main music style.
 
 
As the first, Progpos, please, don't assume progressive rock being something quite specific when we are in the middle of the proces of defining the term. Next, now I understand, you're aiming at a very broad definition, and I'd say, clearly a broader one than the most used - just for trying establish the facts. Then I can say, it's quite alright with me to define prog so broadly, so, I withdraw my suggestion for addition.
 
In fact, I'd say such definition has a good logic comparing with the usual meaning of the term "progressive" in music, and what is even more important, it doesn't have the weak points as a definition based on styles. Weak points coming from in my opinion the fact that the non mainstream rock music is still more eclectic and it's still more difficult to distinct the original main styles in it - which I think will continue in the future. 


Edited by David_D - November 10 2010 at 15:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 04:16
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

 
Do you agree that the question how prog is, or has been, mostly understood is the best starting point for the defining proces? - This could be called a descriptive approach.
 
Or do you for some reasons consider another starting point, with certain purposes, to prefer? It could for instance be that the understanding of prog, shared of most people, is not correct, and it's therefore important to make a correct definition to educate people. Or another example here could be my own attempt for definition in my article, which I today think has been formulated much with the purpose of making a good structure for classifing prog, and of course the wish of making a broad definition. This approach could be called a normative one.
 
As an important question is, how and where to search to find an appropiate essence of prog, and that also depends on the purpose of the defining proces?

What these preliminary considerations are concerned, I'd call green the 'normative' approach and blue a 'taxonomic' (also descriptive) approach.  It should be obvious that a definition should aim at describing the term in question as objectively and encompassing as possible. A normative approach to definition is absurd: "Prog is accepted to be Y but it should be X" 

The quest is not discovery of the essence of prog. It's undiscoverable and presupposes an 'out-of-mind' existence of prog that is independent of how individuals happen to form concepts. The aim is rather to generalize how the majority of people conceptualize prog.      

It should be clear the the current state of the definition is highly idealized in that it describes what prog typically is rather than applying to all instances of prog. There's no way around this, I think. It still has the form "prog is rock - and then some", and that's not ideal. Also, the phrase "incorporating distinctive elements" calls for some reconsideration. It leaves the reader with an impression of prog as something consisting of a bundle of elements which are (more or less) distinct. I think an instance of prog forms an integrated whole and not a bundle of adjacent elements.      
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 09:36
 
 
Progressive Rock:  Music springing from or incorporating distinctive elements of the rock genre while expanding beyond its traditional musical limitations and constraints.
 
As I wrote in my last post, this definition is OK with me now but we have to realize that, at least in my interpretation, it is so broad so it includes for instance the more experimenting blues based rock and industrial - which I'd say is not common in the prog world.


Edited by David_D - November 10 2010 at 10:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:18

Paravion – you make 3 points in your post that I’d like to respond to (although inverted in order).

 

<… the phrase "incorporating distinctive elements" calls for some reconsideration. It leaves the reader with an impression of prog as something consisting of a bundle of elements which are (more or less) distinct. I think an instance of prog forms an integrated whole and not a bundle of adjacent elements.>

 

I did not intend to imply that progressive rock does not form an integrated whole… Neither did I intend to imply that it always must form an integrated whole.  The extent to which artists even thought in terms of synthesis was not intended as a consideration.

 

It was my use of the word “element” which contributed to this unintended implication.  I am hoping the word “characteristic” will be more precise.  What do you think?

 

Since I’m making a change, I’ll also “fine-tune” for something else that has been bothering me.  The definition inadvertently required more than one characteristic of the rock genre to be incorporated into a “non-rock” composition.  This was unintended.  One distinctive element can be adequate.

 

Progressive Rock:  Music either springing from or incorporating at least one distinctive characteristic of the rock genre while expanding beyond the traditional musical limitations and constraints of the genre.

 

<It still has the form "prog is rock - and then some", and that's not ideal. >

 

I want to clarify that I did not say that all “prog is rock” that simply appends something extra.

 
I said that “progressive rock” either is rooted in the rock genre by its very nature while also expanding beyond the traditional musical limitations and constraints of the genre....
 
...or that "progressive rock" is music which was not rooted in the rock genre but which incorporated some characteristic from the rock genre resulting in music that expands beyond the traditional musical limitations and constraints of the genre.   
 
The manner in which one accomplishes this end is not specified.  One could approach it by taking traditional rock music and  then appending something else to it - of course.  But that approach is certainly not the only one allowed by the definition.

 

I may be misunderstanding your point when you say “prog is rock and then some”.  But the definition does not even require all progressive rock to "be rock".  It was important to me to specify that some “progressive rock” music could be fundamentally “non-rock” and remain “non-rock”.  Through simply incorporating characteristics (or now even 1 distinctive characteristic) of the rock genre, this “non-rock” music can still quality as “progressive rock”. 

 

Now is probably as good a time as any to remind everyone that I am not seeking to define “prog”.  Nor am I seeking to define “progressive music”.  I am only attempting to craft a utilitarian definition for “progressive rock”.  Certainly these three terms intersect but I don’t believe they are identical.  In general discussion, I have witnessed patterns of distinct usage for “prog” versus “progressive music” versus “progressive rock”.  I’d rather these differences – and even the idea of whether one believes they exist or not – to be explored in a different post.  Let’s not explore that topic here please!  Suffice it to say that I personally believe there is a subtle distinction and that I am therefore not seeking to define “prog”.  (I realize that “prog” is easier to say and to type but I wanted to clarify my intention.)

 

None of that is to deny that I believe the general notion of “rock music which is unique because it has somehow progressed beyond the boundaries of regular normal everyday rock music” was indeed the intuitive foundation upon which the general public’s understanding of the term “progressive rock” rested during its earliest usage.  Furthermore, I am suggesting that to a large extent, these two words continue to make their individual contributions, informing hearers about the most basic foundation of the term’s meaning even today.

 

<It should be clear the the current state of the definition is highly idealized in that it describes what prog typically is rather than applying to all instances of prog. There's no way around this, I think.>

 

Like you said, I don’t think there is any way around this so I don’t want to belabor the point.  Even so, I’m genuinely interested in specific examples of songs (or pieces of music) which you feel are generally considered “progressive rock” but which would get excluded from that designation on the basis of this definition’s description.   I currently am of the persuasion that a very minimal percentage of the music that is generally considered “progressive rock” is actually excluded by this definition.  But, hey, I could be wrong!  Any examples that you can share would be appreciated.



Edited by progpositivity - November 10 2010 at 20:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:33
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

 
 
Progressive Rock:  Music springing from or incorporating distinctive elements of the rock genre while expanding beyond its traditional musical limitations and constraints.
 
As I wrote in my last post, this definition is OK with me now but we have to realize that, at least in my interpretation, it is so broad so it includes for instance the more experimenting blues based rock and industrial - which I'd say is not common in the prog world.
 
Good point David!  As you also mentioned, experimental rock is included in this definition of "progressive rock".  I actually see this as a strength in that it allows room for "progressive rock" to breathe and grow and evolve well into the 21st Century rather than confining it to specified sets of characteristics, historical circimstances or sub-genres.  This definition allows "progressive rock" to continue "progressing" without requiring that it do so.
 
I tend to think any definition that requires "progressive rock" to "progress" will leave out too much music that is generally considered as "progressive rock".  A definition that requires "progressive rock" to remain within its historical framework is too limiting - violating the very spirit from which the concept arose.  And so I'm suggesting this definition as my attempt to allow "the best of both worlds" (or the worst in some cases some might say I guess...)
 
I'll go ahead and open the semantic "can of worms" by admitting that I believe the common usage of the term "prog" implies a more historical approach with specified characteristics and history.  This explains why I'm not trying to apply this definition to "prog".  I'm not sure how well this definition actually "works" for the general usage of the term "prog".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2010 at 09:34
Progpositivity, I'm not questioning your intentions – I know what you mean and the implications I read out of your definition are quite polemic. Though I'd maintain that the choice of words and the 'internal' logic of the phrases have the risk of giving an impression that prog is a kind of rock, because, as you write progressive rock” either is rooted in the rock genre by its very nature while also expanding beyond the traditional musical limitations and constraints of the genre....” at least suggests a strong link between rock and prog. This is obvious, given the wordy logic of term 'progressive rock', which certainly suggests the same thing. (That's why I prefer the more abstract term 'prog') The “prog is rock – and then some” reading of your definition is inaccurate, but it follows from a 'logic' that says if prog shares feautres with rock, then prog is – more or less – also a kind of rock. I realize that's not what you mean, but at least to some it has the risk of communicating such an understanding.

To further explicate my views on this matter, I'd like to turn to the issue of categorization and propose prog as a radially structured category:

Figure one is a rough attempt at illustrating a proposal for a different approach to categorization. It's inspired by linguist/cognitive scientist George Lakoff – you can read more about radial categories and categorization in general in Lakoff's “Women fire and dangerous things – what categories reveal about the mind.” (University of Chicago press: 1987).

To accept prog as a radial category has a series of implications, the most important are:

a) Category membership (whether something is prog or not) is not a question of either/or – but a question of more or less.

b) Category membership is not determined by discovery of necessary and sufficient conditions or shared features but solely on the basis of degree determined by 'goodness of example' ratings.

The circles and numbers in the figure are taken to represent a center/periphery scale. The positions of the albums roughly (as in not thoroughly considered) reflect how central or peripheral I consider them relative to a prototypical understanding of prog (for example, “Tales from topographic oceans” is judged a 'very good example of the category prog'). It's simply a matter of asking yourself to what extend an album is central to a prototype. In this kind of category-establishment, you ask your informants (test-persons) to determine 'goodness of example' on a scale from 1 to 7, where 1 is 'very good example' and 7 is 'not a good example of [category]'. This has been done with the category furniture, and it showed that 'telephone' (6.80) is not a very good example of furniture, 'chair' (1.20) is a very good example and 'magazine rack' (3.40) is somewhere in the middle.* This may seem bizarre, but it severely challenges the classical view of categorization according to which something either is – or is not – a piece of furniture and a question to what extend something is a piece furniture is thus irrelevant.

A circle has both a vertical and horizontal dimension. The albums, in this case, are arranged randomly with respects to these dimensions, but one could imagine some principles of organization that utilize this multi-dimensional feature of the figure.

Following Rosch's prototype theory of categorization, prog, as a radial category, has a prototypical center that is taken to be independent; it has a cognitive status of it's own and doesn't occupy a place in a taxonomy. It follows that there are no certain features (elements, characteristics etc.) that an instance of prog has to have in order to be prog. To accept prog as a radial category requires you to abandon an idea of prog as a matter of either/or based on existence/non-existence of features and to accept that all music potentially is prog to some degree. If an instance of music has an average rating of 7, it follows that it's a very bad example of prog, not that it just isn't prog. This may seem very controversial.  

Figure 2 illustrates roughly what I mean by prog being independent. Each of the five circles are taken to be representations of the radially structured categories 'rock', 'jazz', 'classical', 'folk' and 'prog' - from prog's point of view, so to speak. It captures how prog relates to other music categories, while still having an independent status as category (the center of the inner circle).

All this leads me to one fundamental objection to your definition: it still has taxonomical traits in that it presents prog as something defined in terms of rock. I'd like to be more helpful in reaching a sufficient definition, but I'm not comfortable playing the role of a definer.  

I think characteristic is slightly better than element, but Music either springing from or incorporating at least one distinctive characteristic of the rock genre while expanding beyond the traditional musical limitations and constraints of the genre” directs attention to a particular entity, namely a seemingly required minimum of at least one distinctive feature/element/characteristic of rock. That's somewhat misleading. I'd propose more tentativeness and awareness of prog as a radial category, and I carefully propose something along these lines: “prog is a genre of music which typically incorporates styles from other domains of music in an attempt to expand beyond the musical limitations of those domains” I'm not satisfied with this defintion, it's vague and imprecise and presupposes that other music styles have limitations. I'd still maintain that prog, really, is undefinable. Just like language is undefinable in linguistics.

_____________________________________

*Rosch, Eleanor (1975): Cognitive representations of semantic categories. Journal of experimental psychology: General 104: 192-233



Edited by Paravion - November 12 2010 at 08:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2010 at 19:11
Hi,
 
Paravision ... that is fantastic ... very well done and said.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2010 at 19:24
  Progressive Rock:  Music springing from or incorporating distinctive elements of the rock genre while expanding beyond its traditional musical limitations and constraints.
 
A big, practical question is whether such a broad definition will be accepted and used. Here, I'm thinking at the fans and musicians of both "the old sub-genres" and "the new ones". I'll guess, it won't be easy as it's in my opinion to a large degree a question of identity which again is much about being different and exclude "the other ones". Then, it's of course a question of what kind of music one like and dislike and in this matter, industrial and experimental for instance are quite different from traditional prog. What we would need, I'll guess, is that some big, or at least smaller, prog sites start to include "the new sub-genres".
 
To Paravion: I distinguish between progressive rock and progressive music. What you suggest is a definition for the latter one while we are discussing a definition for the former one. This assessment is though only based on sporadic reading of your last post as it was too long for me to read and analyze - but your Fig. 2 should say it all.


Edited by David_D - November 11 2010 at 22:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
Paravision ... that is fantastic ... very well done and said.
Thanks. It's a highly  experimental and preliminary suggestion - it has many loose ends and a series of not completely thought through implications.

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I distinguish between progressive rock and progressive music. What you suggest is a definition for the latter one while we are discussing a definition for the former one. This assessment is though only based on sporadic reading of your last post as it was too long for me to read and analyze - but your Fig. 2 should say it all.

Well, I'd argue that a distinction between progressive music and progressive rock isn't necessary, and that the category 'prog' contains both. Also, I'm not defining anything - I was demonstration a method of categorization which differs from a taxonomically inspired type of categorization with focus on features and subcategorization.


Edited by Paravion - November 12 2010 at 08:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 12:08
Paravion's second diagram more or less represents what prog was like in the 70s.  As I have said earlier in this thread, it is not very difficult to observe what is and what is not prog in 70s albums but thereafter, the picture gets a little confused.  Actually, not even thereafter...Rush is already a "rock plus" kind of prog rock band in the 70s in the same way as Dream Theater is a "metal plus" band in the 90s. The rock/metal (as applicable) base is central to their music and no matter how far they venture, they are never too far away from a hard rocking riff. That doesn't seem to be the case with say Gentle Giant or even Genesis for that matter.   Both bands have rock elements but it cannot be said that they have written a rock song in essence with additional sophisticated touches. Rather, as Paravion's diagram brings it out beautifully, it is an organic and highly individualistic byproduct of music that draws from varied influences.   

I think the reason progpositivity has mentioned rock in his definition is because his definition, as it stands, would become too inclusive if that word were omitted.  It would then be construed to include any kind of sophisticated music.  Your - Paravion - diagram describes prog more eloquently than words can, because I honestly confess I don't know how to articulate a definition out of what is essentially a compositional approach.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2010 at 15:37
Originally posted by Paravion Paravion wrote:

Well, I'd argue that a distinction between progressive music and progressive rock isn't necessary, and that the category 'prog' contains both. Also, I'm not defining anything - I was demonstration a method of categorization which differs from a taxonomically inspired type of categorization with focus on features and subcategorization.
 
And I second that notion!
 
However, in a consumerist society, I'm not sure most people can find anything (like we did!) without it having a label.
 
As much as I don't like it either, I would prefer to separate Caravan from Dream Theater. Both progressive, yet different. I would be more inclined to drop the "prog" thing altogether and start separating things a bit better via their sound/style, which could be metal, folk, eccentric, rio, zheul and so forth so that in the end we have a better idea of what the music is like. As it is right now, there is a major confusion between "progressive" and "prog" and everyone uses the terms in every conceivable way possible ... except describe a band properly!
 
But I imagine that if you ever walked into NY's Tower Records or Rasputin's way back when ... you went crazy trying to find anything ... and probably left blown away. I can relate to that ... I did the first time and had to come back with a written list to make sure I could stay in one piece, or spot and actually look/find anything. I don't think that this is visible today at all ... as it was then.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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