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pianoman
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Topic: The evolution of a creative band Posted: November 29 2010 at 15:12 |
I always thought it was interesting how an artistic band progressed. This isn't true with all band of course, but I've always curious about the difference of when a band starts prog/experimental, and goes commercial, or vice versa. For instance, Yes and Genesis both started very prog and artistic, but eventually went pop. On the other hand, bands like Radiohead and Talk Talk started as pop and used their fame to promote their artistic creativity. What drives bands do change so drastically over a period of time? Thoughts on this?
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yanch
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Posted: November 29 2010 at 16:06 |
Interesting...I think in the case of Genesis and Yes, that they were looking at the money that was possible by going more main stream and less prog. At the time they both were becoming more pop, the industry was not very healthy for prog bands and they were both signed with large record companies that had to be pressuring them to sell more records.
I'm not that familiar with Radiohead and Talk Talk, but they very well could have played the game-sell lots of records, make the record company happy, build a large following and be in a position of strength that then allowed them to start writing the kind of music they wanted to with fewer of the pressures from the record companies.
Just my thoughts. I may be way off!
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Tengent
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Posted: November 29 2010 at 19:00 |
Frank Zappa hardly had any evolution at all. From the beginning of his career, everything was already there in his head. He could write jazz, large orchestral pieces, or string quintets. He had all of his influences and he knew what he wanted in his music. That's one of the reasons he is so inspirational to me. But if a band is dynamic, that's always a fun challenge for listeners. I have not fully developed my writing style to where I can tell if in 5 years I will see every chord I write as the "perfect" or "necessary" one.
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Prog Geo
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Posted: November 30 2010 at 10:39 |
It depends from the band.I mean that it depends from what the band wants.
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zhang00
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 03:42 |
If a band is dynamic, that's always a fun challenge for listeners.
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rdtprog
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 04:13 |
pianoman wrote:
. What drives bands do change so drastically over a period of time? Thoughts on this? |
Some have enough money to start doing what they want, Radiiohead and now Linkin Park, for example. Others are tired of doing complex 20 minutes songs and write more concise songs, sometimes pop (Marillion, Genesis). Others are going back to a more hard rock sound (Rush, Dream Theater) But i don't think that it's a big change, it's a need to doing something different, sometimes with discutable results. But when they tried to make pop songs to serve company's needs, they are not a creative band.
Edited by rdtprog - December 01 2010 at 04:13
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Pekka
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 04:55 |
I've read at least Rush and Genesis members say that after years of writing multi-part prog epics they found more challenge in crafting concise, melodic songs. I don't think money was that big a factor.
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rdtprog
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 05:27 |
Pekka wrote:
I've read at least Rush and Genesis members say that after years of writing multi-part prog epics they found more challenge in crafting concise, melodic songs. I don't think money was that big a factor. |
Yes, money is not a big factor, but it helps a little...
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tamijo
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 05:45 |
The times was very diffrent - when Genesis/Yes changed, they followed a trend in the culture, The simpler elements in Punk and New Wave( incl. the electronic drums and all that) , was the new thing, and as such "progressive" rather than mainstream. NOONE with a little bit of respect for himself would continue to make the same old records, at
that time. Those who did, mainly the Heavy school (Whitesnake Blackmore ect.) was considered totaly outdated.
And personally i think Plant (who changed) made himself much more interesting, when you look back, than those just staying with what made them famous.
You may claim that the way Crimso Gabriel and Eno transformed into the 80's, was more artistic and maby even better, than Genesis/Yes, but the change itself was impossible to avoid at the time.
Talk Talk, Radiohead ect. transformed in a time where lots of diffrent music is accepted at the same time.
Very hard to compare.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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O666
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 09:38 |
rdtprog wrote:
pianoman wrote:
. What drives bands do change so drastically over a period of time? Thoughts on this? |
Some have enough money to start doing what they want, Radiiohead and now Linkin Park, for example. Others are tired of doing complex 20 minutes songs and write more concise songs, sometimes pop (Marillion, Genesis). Others are going back to a more hard rock sound (Rush, Dream Theater)
But i don't think that it's a big change, it's a need to doing something different, sometimes with discutable results. But when they tried to make pop songs to serve company's needs, they are not a creative band.
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I dont agree with you and I dont want talk about many of bands that you listed before. I want to talk about MARILLION. You said MARILLION tired of doing 20 min songs and then they write concise and pop songs. SO. can you tell me wich of MARILLION's songs is "complex 20 min" song? And what era you talked about? FISH era or H era?
I read this topic question again and then read your post and I think your mean is:
MARILLION tired of doing complex 20 min songs IN FISH ERA and write more concise pop songs IN H ERA. is it correct or I'm wrong? Can you explain your mean about MARILLION? Thanks.
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chopper
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 10:13 |
O666 wrote:
rdtprog wrote:
pianoman wrote:
. What drives bands do change so drastically over a period of time? Thoughts on this? |
Some have enough money to start doing what they want, Radiiohead and now Linkin Park, for example. Others are tired of doing complex 20 minutes songs and write more concise songs, sometimes pop (Marillion, Genesis). Others are going back to a more hard rock sound (Rush, Dream Theater)
But i don't think that it's a big change, it's a need to doing something different, sometimes with discutable results. But when they tried to make pop songs to serve company's needs, they are not a creative band.
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I dont agree with you and I dont want talk about many of bands that you listed before. I want to talk about MARILLION. You said MARILLION tired of doing 20 min songs and then they write concise and pop songs. SO. can you tell me wich of MARILLION's songs is "complex 20 min" song? And what era you talked about? FISH era or H era?
I read this topic question again and then read your post and I think your mean is:
MARILLION tired of doing complex 20 min songs IN FISH ERA and write more concise pop songs IN H ERA. is it correct or I'm wrong? Can you explain your mean about MARILLION? Thanks. |
Maybe an exaggeration - Genesis only had one 20 min song and I only know of one long Marillion one and that's Grendel (don't think it's 20 minutes though).
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rdtprog
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 13:55 |
chopper wrote:
O666 wrote:
rdtprog wrote:
pianoman wrote:
. What drives bands do change so drastically over a period of time? Thoughts on this? |
Some have enough money to start doing what they want, Radiiohead and now Linkin Park, for example. Others are tired of doing complex 20 minutes songs and write more concise songs, sometimes pop (Marillion, Genesis). Others are going back to a more hard rock sound (Rush, Dream Theater)
But i don't think that it's a big change, it's a need to doing something different, sometimes with discutable results. But when they tried to make pop songs to serve company's needs, they are not a creative band.
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I dont agree with you and I dont want talk about many of bands that you listed before. I want to talk about MARILLION. You said MARILLION tired of doing 20 min songs and then they write concise and pop songs. SO. can you tell me wich of MARILLION's songs is "complex 20 min" song? And what era you talked about? FISH era or H era?
I read this topic question again and then read your post and I think your mean is:
MARILLION tired of doing complex 20 min songs IN FISH ERA and write more concise pop songs IN H ERA. is it correct or I'm wrong? Can you explain your mean about MARILLION? Thanks. |
Maybe an exaggeration - Genesis only had one 20 min song and I only know of one long Marillion one and that's Grendel (don't think it's 20 minutes though). |
Yes Marillion was a bad example, because they still do some extented songs, but it's not as complex as the songs they did with Fish. i'ts not really pop music, it's just progressive rock with more simple melody, not that it's bad music far from my thought. Is this the evolution of a creative band don't know but it's the evoltion of Marillion. And i don't think Marillion could enter in the category of bands that serve company's needs.
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Rune2000
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 15:05 |
Why hasn't anyone mentioned King Crimson yet?
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rdtprog
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 15:31 |
Rune2000 wrote:
Why hasn't anyone mentioned King Crimson yet?
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Yes, KC has never been pop or commercial, they have been creative from to start to today. Does this mean that they didn't evolve? They evolve in their own way...
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The Neck Romancer
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 15:45 |
rdtprog wrote:
Rune2000 wrote:
Why hasn't anyone mentioned King Crimson yet?
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Yes, KC has never been pop or commercial, they have been creative from to start to today. Does this mean that they didn't evolve? They evolve in their own way...
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Are you saying that pop/commercial music isn't creative? Please, there is quite a bunch of innovative pop music out there. Bjork, Massive Attack, Yeasayer...
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 20:24 |
The Beatles is one that had a total upward trajectory and went out with a bang.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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pianoman
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 21:00 |
Coldplay, Animal Collective, Nick Drake...
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himtroy
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 21:18 |
^What? Coldplay defines commercial music NOT being creative and Animal Collective doesn't even fit in that group. There was either some misunderstood sarcasm there or something else...
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Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance.
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pianoman
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Posted: December 01 2010 at 21:42 |
Viva la vida is one of the most creative pop albums I have ever heard. Listen to the song "42" or "Death and All of His Friends." Plus Brian Eno produced it. You have a point with Animal Collective, but their MPP album is very pop, and yet it is some of the most creatively crafted new music in ways that hasn't really been done before.
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octopus-4
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Posted: December 02 2010 at 08:27 |
After the flop of one of his releases somebody said: "I own a salmons farm in Scotland. If you don't buy my album I can't care less. I liked doing it and that's all". Money and age are important factors. That guy wasn't Syd Barrett, of course.
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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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