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Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
Posted: January 01 2011 at 23:52
Same could be said for a bunch of prog. metal groups. It's not fair to lump all of them together and say that they all sound the same if you're not a trained listener of the genre. Same goes with me typecasting symphonic prog as all sounding the same.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: January 02 2011 at 00:23
NecronCommander wrote:
Same could be said for a bunch of prog. metal groups. It's not fair to lump all of them together and say that they all sound the same if you're not a trained listener of the genre. Same goes with me typecasting symphonic prog as all sounding the same.
Interesting commentary, but let's face it, if there's one genre that is not lumped all together in ProgArchives it's Metal, there are three Metal related genres unlike any other sub-genre.
Prog Metal
Tech Extreme Metal
Experimental Prog Metal
And still, all have the strong and dominant metal element sound, and if we take a Tech/Extreme Prog Metal band like Protest the Hero, is as loud and extreme as let's say 90% of the bands there, the vocals in many are so amazingly similar that you may wonder if the same vocalist growls and shouts in every one...Of course as you say this effect is more common in people who are not experts in the genre
In Symphonic we have bands influenced by Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern , etc eras, there's no way you can find too many common elements in most of them, take ELP and Genesis, there's absolutely nothing in common, or Renaissance and Shadow Circus...You wonder how can the two be in the same genre.
I believe genres as Symphonic or Folk Prog (Hey, you got ethnic music from all around the world like Jethro Tull and Los Jaivas), not to mention Eclectic, are much more versatile, even for the not trained listener.
I may be wrong, but that's my opinion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 02 2011 at 00:52
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
Posted: January 02 2011 at 00:40
I think that's a very fair opinion, but I also think you' be surprised to find a lot of those elements scattered throughout a lot of the bands under tech/extreme or experimental/post, and a lot of the bands have these other musical elements blended with heaviness to create part of their signature style.
I'm a (mostly) metal listener, I can safely say that Protest the Hero's vocalist actually has a pretty novel clean vocal style that's pretty unique to the band. I can also distinguish between the growled vocal styles of many artists and, believe it or not, there are different styles of extreme vocals.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: January 02 2011 at 00:48
NecronCommander wrote:
I'm a (mostly) metal listener, I can safely say that Protest the Hero's vocalist actually has a pretty novel clean vocal style that's pretty unique to the band. I can also distinguish between the growled vocal styles of many artists and, believe it or not, there are different styles of extreme vocals.
It's all a matter of taste.
I don't doubt it, but the point is hat you have to be an expert in the genre to distinguish the growling and the heaviness of many extreme bands.
This is not so common in lets say Symphonic, except cases as Yes and Starcastle where the second is almost a clone of the first, but you take the five of the most popular Symphonic bands
Yes
Genesis
ELP
Camel
Kansas
And nobody with normal audition will mistake one with the other.
I'm not sure if most of the non Metal listeners will distinguish all the most popular extreme bands.
Thanks for a civil and interesting conversation, lately it's not so common.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 02 2011 at 00:48
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
Posted: January 02 2011 at 00:58
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
NecronCommander wrote:
I'm a (mostly) metal listener, I can safely say that Protest the Hero's vocalist actually has a pretty novel clean vocal style that's pretty unique to the band. I can also distinguish between the growled vocal styles of many artists and, believe it or not, there are different styles of extreme vocals.
It's all a matter of taste.
I don't doubt it, but the point is hat you have to be an expert in the genre to distinguish the growling and the heaviness of many extreme bands.
This is not so common in lets say Symphonic, except cases as Yes and Starcastle where the second is almost a clone of the first, but you take the five of the most popular Symphonic bands
Yes
Genesis
ELP
Camel
Kansas
And nobody with normal audition will mistake one with the other.
I'm not sure if most of the non Metal listeners will distinguish all the most popular extreme bands.
Thanks for a civil and interesting conversation, lately it's not so common.
Iván
This was more or less what I was trying to get at in the first place, yeah.
And this is a valid point too, I don't know if I considered that.
Joined: April 15 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 133
Posted: January 02 2011 at 06:55
There is a reason for everything. Probably the reason for this poll was to make some advertising to this band(for me it was completely unknown up to this point). Nevertheless this poll remind me of Ozzy O. answering to a TV moderator.
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:40
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
NecronCommander wrote:
Same could be said for a bunch of prog. metal groups. It's not fair to lump all of them together and say that they all sound the same if you're not a trained listener of the genre. Same goes with me typecasting symphonic prog as all sounding the same.
Interesting commentary, but let's face it, if there's one genre that is not lumped all together in ProgArchives it's Metal, there are three Metal related genres unlike any other sub-genre.
Prog Metal
Tech Extreme Metal
Experimental Prog Metal
And still, all have the strong and dominant metal element sound, and if we take a Tech/Extreme Prog Metal band like Protest the Hero, is as loud and extreme as let's say 90% of the bands there, the vocals in many are so amazingly similar that you may wonder if the same vocalist growls and shouts in every one...Of course as you say this effect is more common in people who are not experts in the genre
In Symphonic we have bands influenced by Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern , etc eras, there's no way you can find too many common elements in most of them, take ELP and Genesis, there's absolutely nothing in common, or Renaissance and Shadow Circus...You wonder how can the two be in the same genre.
I believe genres as Symphonic or Folk Prog (Hey, you got ethnic music from all around the world like Jethro Tull and Los Jaivas), not to mention Eclectic, are much more versatile, even for the not trained listener.
I may be wrong, but that's my opinion.
Iván
Talk about hyperbole.
Can you name me one band here that sounds like PtH? No, thank you. Let's move on.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:44
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
NecronCommander wrote:
I'm a (mostly) metal listener, I can safely say that Protest the Hero's vocalist actually has a pretty novel clean vocal style that's pretty unique to the band. I can also distinguish between the growled vocal styles of many artists and, believe it or not, there are different styles of extreme vocals.
It's all a matter of taste.
I don't doubt it, but the point is hat you have to be an expert in the genre to distinguish the growling and the heaviness of many extreme bands.
This is not so common in lets say Symphonic, except cases as Yes and Starcastle where the second is almost a clone of the first, but you take the five of the most popular Symphonic bands
Yes
Genesis
ELP
Camel
Kansas
And nobody with normal audition will mistake one with the other.
I'm not sure if most of the non Metal listeners will distinguish all the most popular extreme bands.
Thanks for a civil and interesting conversation, lately it's not so common.
Iván
Take five of the most common prog metal bands.
1) Dream Theater
2) Pain of Salvation
3) Opeth
4) Meshuggah
5) maudlin of the Well
Guarantee everyone here can tell them apart within about 5 seconds of a song.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:45
petrica wrote:
There is a reason for everything. Probably the reason for this poll was to make some advertising to this band(for me it was completely unknown up to this point). Nevertheless this poll remind me of Ozzy O. answering to a TV moderator.
Don't blow my cover. I got paid $20 by the band to post this.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1768
Posted: January 02 2011 at 09:23
Dellinger wrote:
You know how many people may hear the first minute of Yes's "Close to the Edge" and immediatley discard the band as garbage if they only go for that first impression?
I dare to say that people who react like that are not member of this forum.
Dellinger wrote:
Of course, few prog fans would make that mistake, but how many people won't get to know prog just because they won't give it a chance?
By the way, I have absolutley no idea of what Protest the Hero sounds like.
I suggest you listen to the first minute of Bury the Hatchet (found on this site), then you understand what I mean.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: January 02 2011 at 10:02
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Take five of the most common prog metal bands.
1) Dream Theater
2) Pain of Salvation
3) Opeth
4) Meshuggah
5) maudlin of the Well
Guarantee everyone here can tell them apart within about 5 seconds of a song.
Did you read my post?
I'm not sure if most of the non Metal listeners will distinguish all the most popular extreme bands.
We were talking about Tech Extreme Metal, and except Messhugah and Opeth (which are extremely similar to PtH), you don't mention another Tech/Extreme Prog Metal band
I could mention
Opeth
Atheist
Crimson
Dissilution
Unexpect
Don't tell me they don't sound incredibly similar (Not saying exact)...At least for me
Even NecronCommander, a mainly Metal listener, gently accepted my point:
NecronCommander wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I'm not sure if most of the non Metal listeners will distinguish all the most popular extreme bands.
This was more or less what I was trying to get at in the first place, yeah.
And this is a valid point too, I don't know if I considered that.
So please
If you want to contradict me, do it, but please don't change my words, I can recognize Pain of Salvation, Maudlin of the Well and Dream Theater, but none of them are Tech/Extreme Prog Metal bands
You will probably say you can recognize all Tech Extreme Prog Metal bands, but please ask to people who don't listen Prog Metal, I'm sure many will say they sound almost exactly the same.
Don't use "The "No, thank you. Let's move on" argument, because that's a cheap trick to stop me from answering, I gave you the 5 bands, ask the people.
Iván
Edit: I asked why all songs by this band sound exactly the same, read the previous post, seems that Formentera Lady agrees with me.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 02 2011 at 10:22
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
Posted: January 02 2011 at 10:38
Alright, I'm actually gonna have to disagree with you there, Ivan. Opeth, Meshuggah, and Protest the Hero sound almost nothing alike apart from their shared heaviness (and even then each band has a different degree of such), and I'm pretty sure that's fairly easy to tell as well, even upon first listen to the untrained ear.
Here, I'm gonna give some pretty typical examples from each band. These aren't special examples, all of these songs fall within each band's general style. It's pretty easy to tell these apart even after a few seconds.
Edited by NecronCommander - January 02 2011 at 10:48
Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1768
Posted: January 02 2011 at 11:20
Just listened to the first minute of Meshuggah and Opeth, and I can't tell the difference, sounds like the same band to me . Sorry, I think this is not my genre, and also I think Yes cannot be compared to any metal band (that's how I call them).
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
Posted: January 02 2011 at 11:40
Anthony H. wrote:
Wait, Opeth and Meshuggah sound the same? lolwut?
Of course ya n00b. You can add practically all the tech/extreme genre in there, nobody in his right mind would sense any variation in there. They're sooo loud!
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Yes vs Protest the Hero
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NecronCommander wrote:
. Sorry, I think this is not my genre, and also I think Yes cannot be compared to any metal band (that's how I call them).
