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JeanFrame View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2011 at 10:05
What's caused the controversy is 1-2-3 not recording any albums, and Clouds were essentially a different band who, with great irony, ended up seeming like any other prog act. Had 1-2-3 albums existed, there wouldn't be anything to argue about. Even without the albums though, there's no doubt whatsoever about the kind of music 1-2-3 was playing or the influence they had. The other big problem is the lack of commercial success. Mainstream mags and even this forum lean heavily on what sells rather than what counts in artistic influence. Though this forum, while by necessity/populariy using that commercial centre as its basis, at least in passing, shines the spotlight on every other kind of artist it can. That's rare and should be nurtured. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:47
Originally posted by Malraux Malraux wrote:

Thanks for the interview. The origins of progressive rock are complex and don't revolve around a single album.
I am not sure where you get the impression that what you wrote above is being claimed in the interview.
 
It is the work that went on before any records were recorded, especially when the band were known as 1-2-3 in their pre Clouds days, that indicated that an iconoclastic musical form was emerging.
 
I believe that only one track, hastily recorded on a tape machine by an audience member even exists of 1-2-3 in action. They did not record and even when they later recorded as 'Clouds', they were best known as a live band.
 
I saw a few performances of the band in their 1-2-3 and later Clouds identities, and believe me that the audiences who were musically quite well informed in those days were split in their opinions. Some were amazed, while others puzzled. It was indeed a new and emerging form of music.
 
Of course, it is ridiculous to suggest that any one band 'invented' progressive rock music, and again I am not sure that this is what is being claimed. The music of 1-2-3 was unique in style at the time, but there were other Hammond players, like Mike Ratledge for example who were taking the sound of the instrument beyond the Jimmy Smith thing, albeit in a different direction. What 1-2-3 introduced was an organ fronted blend of musical styles which was just not being played anywhere else by anyone else.
 
What helped was the superb musicianship of this trio. Harry Hughes for example who has to be one of the most acomplished drummers in the genre and is one of the few drummers I have seen who can do the 'Buddy Rich' one hand drum roll.
 
My six cents worth.
 
M.
 
 
 
 
Great post, and all true. Just a shame 1-2-3 couldn't adapt to the new age.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2011 at 03:42
Terrific to see info re 1-2-3 /Clouds in depth. Well done Prog Archives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2011 at 13:19
I still find it shocking that popularity and record sales decide the priorities of history. This genre is owed so much by 1-2-3 but you have to trawl the 'serious' critiques to find that openly stated.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2011 at 16:35
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

I still find it shocking that popularity and record sales decide the priorities of history. This genre is owed so much by 1-2-3 but you have to trawl the 'serious' critiques to find that openly stated.
I don't see why this should be so shocking. After a gap of some 40+ years, recorded material (which is what 'popularity and record sales' is a measure of) is the only factual evidence there is while everything else is anecdotal. This is not to say that anecdotal evidence is inadmissible or wrong, what it lacks is provenance and supportive contemporary documentation, in the form of magazine and trade paper articles from the late 60s and early 70s or even the hyperbole of press releases from record companies and band management. While what passes for music journalism, (which has never been an objective or accurate medium when it comes to popular music and the music business), cannot be considered reliable since it is generally biased and subjective rather than being factual reportage or the plain documentation of historical events as they happened, any subjectivism within that would tend to normalise to some extent if taken across a representative sample. This is how we can measure the relative success of any band in its live environment - the collective reporting of a number of journalists would average out any personal bias of an individual reporter - but to do that requires a number of different reviews to analyse. Later printed 'histories of Prog/Rock' are equally unreliable, since they themselves are based upon the similar anecdotal evidence they are cited to support, rather than upon any actual documentation from the era they are documenting. That we (modern Prog fans in general rather than PA in particular) are prepared to consider anecdotal evidence and scant contemporaneous documentation and not be wholly dismissive is enough I would have thought.

Edited by Dean - October 06 2011 at 16:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2011 at 01:41
Interesting post, and perhaps explanatory to some degree too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 13:22
Good stuff from Dean, but quote from Encyclopedia of Popular Music  re 1-2-3  " a definitive precursor to the progressive rock movement".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 13:39
Originally posted by resurrection resurrection wrote:

Good stuff from Dean, but quote from Encyclopedia of Popular Music  re 1-2-3  " a definitive precursor to the progressive rock movement".
Which ably illustrates what I said - EoPM was written in 1989, over twenty years later- there is very little contemporaneous evidence - I would be more interested in Larkin's cited sources.

Edited by Dean - October 09 2011 at 13:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 15:45
That tome is the bible of music industry professionals, and though the original entry was 1989 or thereabouts, the entry on Clouds was rewritten in the past few years including that quote. Having said that, I still agree with much of the sentiment of Dean's post. Must also confess an ignorance re Larkin, back to homework on that!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 16:26
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

That tome is the bible of music industry professionals, and though the original entry was 1989 or thereabouts, the entry on Clouds was rewritten in the past few years including that quote. 
That I find frustrating, all of the references to 1-2-3 being the birth of Prog are from the 1990s: Larkin's Encyclopedia of Pop Music, Hogg's The History of Scottish Rock and Pop and Ward's Illustrated History of Rock must have gotten the information from somewhere and that somewhere must be a written account of what happened in 1967-69 ... because it's pretty evident that none of those authors have first hand knowledge of the band from the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 17:12
Oh yes, I remember now, Colin Larkin was the original editor, I only remembered it as Muze publications. As I said, the critique was rewritten quite recently, certainly in the last few years, and Larkin certainly saw the band in its heyday. Mojo magazine coined the bit about "1-2-3 and the Birth of Prog", though I think all of us accept that birth was nowhere as simple as that. Then again, Brian Hogg's testimony in particular is definitely not anecdotal, he was obviously there and witnessed it happen. Nevertheless, much of what you said is true. I think the point you make about the time lapse and the lack of witness testimony may help to explain the relative mainstream disinterest in many influential bands of that era who didn't have major sales or success.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 17:40
Gah, stop it ... just when I was beginning to get comfortable with this you throw a spaniel in the works.... How do you know that Larkin saw the band in its heyday and that Hogg was obviously there? That's not the impression I get from reading the texts.

Edited by Dean - October 09 2011 at 17:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2011 at 18:24
er....well....no....caught me out a bit...I dont know that Larkin or Hogg were actually there, I read that into what they wrote, though it seems to say the opposite to you! Larkin's original account seems factual, not inherited (though I cant, as you say, be sure). Hogg's account (pge 67) definitely doesn't seem anecdotal, too much detail etc. Also testimony from the actual time, ie, Marquee programs, Bowie's letter etc. There are also people who were there, myself included, but as a mere punter (and admirer), I dont suppose my testimony counts for much. Trouble was, at the time we didn't know we were listening to the future, we only knew it was different. Have you read member Malreaux's interesting testimony? He really should post more (and not just on this subject).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2011 at 09:44
I said it already - lack of recorded material is a problem.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2012 at 09:33
Is that live recording at the Marquee the only 123 track?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2012 at 09:21
Yes as far as known. More 123 recordings are badly needed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2012 at 12:12
The rest of that live set might be out there somewhere, it does seem unfortunate that only one track survives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2012 at 03:53
I read somewhere that there were pieces of other songs on the tape; even to hear those pieces would be interesting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2012 at 09:53
Might be worth writing to the Clouds website?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2012 at 05:25
I have been visiting the clouds more that 2 years its a musical sites and this is nice to get tips and more.

Really i love to hear about them...
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