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Earthmover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: July 26 2012 at 18:47 |
The problem (or the solution) is that intelligence is not a one-way road. It doesn't very precisely have set of rules which you must follow to be considered intelligent, in my opinion. For example, two persons might have two different views various things in the world, but they can still both be considered intelligent. It really depends.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 26 2012 at 21:31 |
s1carlson0589 wrote:
However, a taste for progressive rock shows some kind of musical intelligence IMO. Not the other way around, which is what Saperlipopette was saying, unless I am mistaken. |
I wouldn't deny that it shows some kind of musical intelligence, or to phrase it differently, a certain level of understanding of music, but "a kind of" is the key word here. Music itself is very broad, with different emotive, lyrical and analytical aspects resonating to varying degrees. Progheads tend to be strong on the analytical side but not necessarily so on the emotive and lyrical side. So it is not necessary that a person who doesn't like prog is too dumb to grasp its complexity; maybe he simply cannot see why somebody would want to endure so much un-emotional noodling to derive some appreciation from it (as I don't when I listen to more by-the-numbers, generic prog that doesn't have much to say to me). And that is just a different, and equally valid, perspective of music, not a reflection of intelligence. By the way, Saperlipopette did cite some study that apparently revealed Beethoven fans to be more intelligent than modern pop listeners, so, I have to correct you, he has attempted to correlate intelligence, and not just musical intelligence, with music tastes.
s1carlson0589 wrote:
I like believing my taste in music is better than others. Everyone does, that's why they find their music appealing. |
Once again, I would request you to please avoid generalizing. Maybe everybody that you know shares your perspective there. I want to learn more about my tastes and prefer music that is better for MY tastes, obviously. And my tastes are a function of my previous exposure to music and my socio-cultural background. It would be very difficult for me to judge my tastes to be better than others on that basis unless they share the same cultural background and have listened to broadly the same kind of music. For example, my cultural background makes it very difficult for me to come to terms with opera and merely even listen to that overwrought mode of singing for more than a few minutes. Should I therefore judge my tastes to be far superior than the millions who must have listened and enjoyed opera over the years or respect cultural differences and let it be? Where exactly does intelligence figure here? Many 'intelligent' classical music fans claim that jazz leaves them cold. But jazz also has a lot of capability for complexity and technical brilliance. Music is not just all these analytical components, after all; the chosen tones, the selection of instruments and their programming all affect us profoundly.
Besides, how does it matter to me in the least? I am not thinking about other listeners in the world when I am drawn into the 'inner world' of an artist that I love listening to. All I care about is my selfish enjoyment and pleasure. I look for people with similar tastes not because I want to talk to others with a similar level of intelligence but simply because I am more likely to find some more music that I might enjoy that way. On the other hand, by not disdaining genres that I don't like as representing lower levels of musical intelligence, I keep my options open and explore more music instead of listening to more of the same.
s1carlson0589 wrote:
If you didn't think it was better in some way, you wouldn't prefer it. |
Better for me, yes. It need not necessarily be just as good for somebody else. If music was taught and graded in schools across the world, then we could perhaps judge who is a better music listener in the way we would who is a better engineer or lawyer. Being that that is not the case, it is a bit like saying the flight from London to New York is much better than the flight from Chicago to Mexico (I have no clue about that, by the way). Maybe it is, but it is a pointless comparison because if somebody needs to go from Chicago to Mexico, he is not going to wish he was travelling on the London-New York flight instead.
s1carlson0589 wrote:
It's like living in a world where everyone sees a kids coloring book with crayons and thinks it's an incredible painting, being none the wiser. |
Isn't there a difference between an unqualified "incredible" and the more definitive "most incredible painting in the world"? As long as nobody is comparing it to Mona Lisa, a slightly hyperbolic appreciation of a kid's attempts to draw does nobody any harm. Of course, if the child thinks what he drew is better than Da Vinci, he needs to be educated. But where do pop and prog figure here (see above my comparison between Camel/Renaissance and Beatles/Wonder); they serve entirely different needs and cannot be evaluated like that.
s1carlson0589 wrote:
Furthermore, I enjoy believing that my intelligence is what draws me to progressive rock. It's like a paradigm. |
If you wish to believe that, it's not for me in any case to restrain you from doing so. I believe it simply reflects an obsession with the analytical side of music. I KNOW that that's drew me to prog, eventually...now it depends on what drew each such listener to prog and what does he like most about it.
s1carlson0589 wrote:
Maybe I am rambling, but I think this is where ego comes back into play. Swimming against the stream and traveling the path of strong resistance is a step one must go through to understand much of progressive rock. (for the most part) |
I would readily agree with that argument - since I am independent in my worldview and don't feel burdened to conform to the norm - had it not been for the fact that prog was in fact popular in the 70s. We need to 'go against the grain' to discover prog simply because it has become relatively obscure and therefore harder to find - and people who listen to experimental music probably also put themselves through this journey - and not necessarily because of something intrinsic to the music.
s1carlson0589 wrote:
It makes one think there is something better about taking the more difficult and less traveled path, building more confidence and a larger ego when it comes to these topics. |
Then perhaps that also reflects a lack of belief and confidence in the chosen path if it must be reinforced by artificially establishing a measure of superiority to people you haven't met. Artists, prog or otherwise, who go against the grain do so because they believe in pursuing their artistic expression through various works and not so much to feel superior. I therefore have far more respect for a Robert Fripp than one of those myspace black metal bands who seem to exist solely for the reason of feeling superior to others on account of their obscurity and 'commitment to uber grim necro kvlt values' and don't have much else to say, don't have their own voice. To further add...
s1carlson0589 wrote:
That's why I think a certain degree of pretentiousness is necessary in progressive rock. Just like most scientists start cringing when they hear someone spouting theology.
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If the goal is clear, singleminded pursuit thereof should be sufficient motivation. It is only when the vision is muddled that another ideological wall has to be erected to match the one you dislike.
Edited by rogerthat - July 27 2012 at 06:26
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Big Ears
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 08 2005
Location: Hants, England
Status: Offline
Points: 727
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Posted: August 19 2012 at 12:24 |
My IQ is around 120 on a good day, but I still like progressive rock.
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Cloud Forest
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 13 2012
Location: Milky Way!
Status: Offline
Points: 52
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Posted: August 19 2012 at 16:15 |
well you wount see rednecks listen to prog rock. Progressive rock is for more intelligent part of society
Edited by Cloud Forest - August 19 2012 at 16:16
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All Hail Geddy Lee!
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mostever
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 19 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 10
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Posted: August 19 2012 at 21:15 |
You can be intelligent and not enjoy progressive music, and you can be unintelligent and enjoy progressive music. 'Intelligence' is a crude concept anyways; I see know "more" or "less" intelligent; I see different perspectives and plastic reality.
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Josh18293
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 17 2012
Location: Lumby
Status: Offline
Points: 54
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Posted: August 20 2012 at 13:13 |
Intelligence < Appreciation
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Raccoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2012
Location: 444 Grove St RZ
Status: Offline
Points: 763
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Posted: August 20 2012 at 15:39 |
You don't have to be smart to listen to prog, but I do believe it makes you smarter
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Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty
https://distantdynasty.bandcamp.com/
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Earthmover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: August 20 2012 at 18:46 |
Big Ears wrote:
My IQ is around 120 on a good day, but I still like progressive rock.
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I find IQ to be somewhat worthless and unimportant thing. One's intelligence cannot be measured by a simple test. I have never taken IQ test, so it might be accurate, but my observations so far say no.
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Sheavy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 28 2010
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
Points: 2854
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Posted: August 20 2012 at 20:02 |
Cloud Forest wrote:
well you wount see rednecks listen to prog rock. Progressive rock is for more intelligent part of society
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Hey, Hey, I'm from Alabama jerk.
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DisillusionedGiraffe
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 13 2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3
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Posted: August 20 2012 at 22:35 |
I'll leave it to others to decide whether I'm an intellectual but I am certainly interested in intellectual pursuits. I do think musical taste and intellect have a link. Classical music for example, I find to be something favored by a very large majority of smart people.
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Meta
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 22 2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 69
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 02:31 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
I failed the air traffic controller test. |
Being an air traffic controller is my day job. Sorry to hear about your test.
I think there is some correlation between the kind of music one enjoys and intelligence. It doesn't necessarily mean that prog correlates to a higher IQ. Here is a chart I found pretty interesting, aligning musical preferences vs. SAT score:
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 02:34 |
country music = fail
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 06:37 |
DisillusionedGiraffe wrote:
I'll leave it to others to decide whether I'm an intellectual but I am certainly interested in intellectual pursuits. I do think musical taste and intellect have a link. Classical music for example, I find to be something favored by a very large majority of smart people.
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You've never seen the last night of the Proms have you?
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5132
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 06:38 |
Does this mean that i have to listen more Beethoven to be intelligent, or it's because i am not listening to Beethoven that i am not intelligent!
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Josef_K
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Stockholm
Status: Offline
Points: 147
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 07:08 |
To me, it doesn't matter. If you are intelligent AND interested in music, you are most likely to analyze music on a much deeper level than people who are not intelligent and/or aren't interested in music. If you like to analyze the music you listen to you are quite likely to be moving further into the more obscure genres in search for something that stimulates your analytic activity. Still this will not be your only criteria for liking a genre. For example, classical music is not interesting for me to analyze simply because I cannot relate to the sound landscape. It is highly developed music theoretically, but simply not interesting on an emotional level (there are a few exceptions as always).
Measuring emotional intelligence is always a subjective thing, so I would say that it's impossible to say what music is for the intelligent. I can tell you this however, I will continue to analyze all kinds of music and use fancy words to describe why I don't like Adele's "21" album etc because that is a great part of how I listen to music and I believe that you have to try hard (of course this will often make you come across as pretentious) to explain why you like/don't like a certain type of music in order to gain the respect of someone who does like it. I would be interested in hearing more of that from anyone disliking my favorite bands at least...
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Leave the past to burn, At least that's been his own - Peter Hammill
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8571
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 08:25 |
I am going to take a stab in the dark and suggest that the SAT/Music correlation chart is likely based on a small sample size. Counting Crows with the smartest of rock listeners? That singer's caterwauling causes me physical distress.
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Meta
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 22 2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 69
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 09:53 |
Tapfret wrote:
I am going to take a stab in the dark and suggest that the SAT/Music correlation chart is likely based on a small sample size. Counting Crows with the smartest of rock listeners? That singer's caterwauling causes me physical distress. |
This quote is from the guy who made the chart:
"
I've listened to artists who after listening to I thought to myself "Wow... loving this rubbish says a lot about someone and how much they got going on in their head." Could one's musical tastes say something about intelligence? How about SAT scores? Well, like any good scientist, I decided to see how well my personal experience matches reality. How might one do this?
Well, here's one idea.
- Get a friend of yours to download, using Facebook, the ten most frequent "favorite music" at every college via that college's Network Statistics page on Facebook (manually -- as not to violate Facebook's ToS). These ten "favorite musics" are perhaps indicative of the overall intellectual milieu of that college.
- Download the average SAT/ACT score (from CollegeBoard) for students attending every college.
- Presto! We have a correlation between musical tastes and dumbitude (smartitude too)!
Music <=> Colleges <=> Average SAT Scores
- Plot the average SAT of each "favorite music", discarding those with too few samples to have a reliable average.
- Post the results on your website, pondering what the Internet will think of it.
Yes, I'm aware correlation ≠ causation. The results are hilarity incarnate regardless of causality. You can stop sending me email about this distinction. Thanks."
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Zargasheth
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 27 2012
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 69
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 12:08 |
It is possible that some correlation occurs because people who enjoy complex music--who enjoy listening to music partially because they enjoy thinking about it--also enjoy thinking about and analyzing other things. I'm not saying this would produce a very strong correlation, but it might be there.
Also, there are certain genres or bands that have a stereotype of intelligence or stupidity associated to them, and generally people who think they're intelligent will want to listen to the former and avoid the latter. And there is probably a small correlation between being intelligent and thinking you're intelligent (although certainly neither implies the other.)
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Meta
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 22 2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 69
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 12:30 |
Zargasheth wrote:
And there is probably a small correlation between being intelligent and thinking you're intelligent (although certainly neither implies the other.)
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There is a fascinating phenomenon called the Dunning-Kruger Effect, which is summarized as follows (from Wikipedia):
"Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will: - tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
- fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
- fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
- recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill"
I would be willing to guess that along with competence the more intelligent people are, the more they realize and are aware of their own limitations and would probably be less likely to overestimate their intelligence. The reverse is probably true of less intelligent people.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13241
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Posted: August 25 2012 at 14:27 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
DisillusionedGiraffe wrote:
I'll leave it to others to decide whether I'm an intellectual but I am certainly interested in intellectual pursuits. I do think musical taste and intellect have a link. Classical music for example, I find to be something favored by a very large majority of smart people.
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You've never seen the last night of the Proms have you?
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Brilliant post, Iain I got it, if no one else did.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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