Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Robert Fripp Musical Concept Help
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Robert Fripp Musical Concept Help

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
GaryISIS View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: March 01 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryISIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Robert Fripp Musical Concept Help
    Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:15

Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you would be so kind as to help me with some homework. I've to let my class listen to a piece of music (I've chosen Robert Fripp - Eye of the Needle) and identify 25 musical concepts within the piece.

So far I have ascending arpeggios (at the end of the piece), counter melody, contrary motion, cross rhythms, and ground bass (in the beginning) 

 
I know there must be more but I'm pretty terrible at identifying concepts. Performing and composing are my strong points.
 
Any help would be appreciated, thanks. :)


Edited by GaryISIS - March 01 2011 at 16:18
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:30
Hi,
 
I'm the worst to ask this ... but I would make sure that I would put one "musical element" down or two that will probably get a reaction ...
 
1. It's improvised, and he adjusts as he goes along. As such, a lot of what he does MIGHT never be based on music anything, anymore than he might think ... what happens if I add this effect on top of all this ...
 
2. The feeling ... he adjust the music for the feeling, and concentrating merely on the musical elements, in the end, means one thing ... you are not listening to the music, or let it flow through you and take you for a trip ...
 
Those should be your 2 "last" concepts on your paper. Because otherwise, your idea is totally off key and is not what Robert does at all ... and a lot of it is incidental and accidental, and not musically defined. However, he is also a very knowledgeable person in music, and he might better be able to disguise it, but people like him spend more time "deconstructing" music and its precepts than he does worrying about "music".
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Motorville
Status: Offline
Points: 10979
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 16:34
25 musical concepts in a 3 minute piece?
Back to Top
thellama73 View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Eclectic Prog Team

Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 17:36
I only listened to a little of it, but it's in 14/8 for a start, which is worth mentioning. You might also bring up the ostinato.
Back to Top
GaryISIS View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: March 01 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryISIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2011 at 03:43
Is it 14/8 throughout the whole thing? I had trouble figuring out the time signature. I'll mention the ostinato definetely, I have no idea why I didn't think of that. Thanks :)
 
Moshkito I understand what you're saying but everything can be defined to an extent. I'm not implying that when Robert wrote this he was thinking about technicalities and terms, but what he ends up playing can be described by these terms. All music can.
 
Yeh it does seem like alot Chopper, but even the most simple concepts like the fact that it's played by guitars count.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2011 at 21:03
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

25 musical concepts in a 3 minute piece?
 
Yeah ... isn't that amazing?
 
I'm gonna call this book the "One Minute Concept" ... and then the Epilogue as ... "The One Minute Progressive Concept" ... and then ...
 
Yeah ... so much for the "knowledge of music" and what it is and can be. Somehow I think if this person or that teacher heard a 15 minute piece by Fripp, they would probably fall asleep! ...happy dreams! ... on top of it the comment about construct/deconstruct ... was totally missed out on.  And that, by itself, is the biggest concept of it all ... and is the one that is left behind!
 
That's music knowledge for you!


Edited by moshkito - March 02 2011 at 21:04
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
GaryISIS View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: March 01 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryISIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 01:48
No, he wouldn't fall asleep. My teacher loves minimalist music and actually introduced me to composers like Steve Reich (a composer who influenced Fripp greatly)
 
I don't think you realise what kind of concepts I'm talking about.
 
Rhythmic, structural, harmonic, melodic, timbre, style/form, tone, instrumentation and dynamics. Within these sections are hundreds of descriptions of how music can sound. Randomly bash a guitar for 10 seconds and you'll hit about 10 different concepts.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 13:34
Originally posted by GaryISIS GaryISIS wrote:

No, he wouldn't fall asleep. My teacher loves minimalist music and actually introduced me to composers like Steve Reich (a composer who influenced Fripp greatly)
 
I don't think you realise what kind of concepts I'm talking about.
 
Rhythmic, structural, harmonic, melodic, timbre, style/form, tone, instrumentation and dynamics. Within these sections are hundreds of descriptions of how music can sound. Randomly bash a guitar for 10 seconds and you'll hit about 10 different concepts.
 
It wasn't meant to be taken that way ... but I think you took one of the worst pieces to find "musical elements" by someone that loves to break down these elements ... you might find something start here, something else start 2 steps later, and then the loop comes back in the next step, and then he adds something else on top of that whole thing, when it sounds ok, or right, for Robert's ears ... and his adding, or starting something at any given point in time, might, or might not, have anything to do with music ... just his feeling.
 
No one, can play an instrument, with that many concepts in his/her head ... it's impossible to digest and translate into notes ... somewhere along the line, you have to let go, and then LEARN, or FIND OUT, what comes with what you are doing ... and the assumption, for an exercise like that ... is that there are concepts involved in its creation, and your teacher is mis-leading you if he/she is asking you to find concepts ... when the correct answer is ... NONE! 
 
And that is probably the lesson! And if he is into those others, you can get a lot of Fripp'isms, done electronically by the person that preetty much invented these and still does them better than anyone else ... Klaus Schulze! ... and he is 100% improvised and he only works with the feeling at hand ... you really should see one of his DVD's ... it puts a new spin on "music" that we are not used to hearing at all! And what Robert is doing, Manuel Gottsching and Ash Ra Tempel have been doing for 35 years! In fact, try to listen to Manuel with Klaus in "In Blue".
 
In fact, why don't you read this post to your teacher!
 
You might also read up on Kasper Hauser ... that should help you learn something about "concepts" ... they are stuck in our heads, and have nothing to do with anything else, except what is in our heads, and when these are confronted with the opposite, they rarely stand up ... Robert is not that "mental" with his own work ... it's about the moment, not the mental attributes at that moment! ... Robert is more "mental" with King Crimson, because he is playing with others and needs to co-ordinate things with them ... there, you can find "concepts" ... but on his own, I think you are hitting up air bubbles!


Edited by moshkito - March 03 2011 at 13:42
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 23:56
Originally posted by GaryISIS GaryISIS wrote:

Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you would be so kind as to help me with some homework. I've to let my class listen to a piece of music (I've chosen Robert Fripp - Eye of the Needle) and identify 25 musical concepts within the piece.

So far I have ascending arpeggios (at the end of the piece), counter melody, contrary motion, cross rhythms, and ground bass (in the beginning) 

 
I know there must be more but I'm pretty terrible at identifying concepts. Performing and composing are my strong points.
 
Any help would be appreciated, thanks. :)

Hello!  Seek out the answers from the master himself, Bob Fripp:


There's more to discover if you go into the "search" window of his diaries & enter "Eye of the Needle."

I was fortunate to be bassist to one of Bob's GuitarCraft students, the amazing Alonzo (Lon) Jones of Tulsa, OK, so I know a bit of the technique.  Listen for the alternating pick patterns and precision in employing the pick. 

Other techniques specific to Fripp's acoustic guitar style included his "new standard tuning," use of the same guitar for all players (originally an Ovation fiberglass-acoustic guitar with carbon fiber top), very controlled right and left-hand technique etc.   These are all unique to the League of Craft Guitarists ensemble.

And, this was not improvised but very precisely worked out as a training tool to help Guitar Craft students to gel as a musical unit!  By combining multiple guitars and players, Fripp essentially created a very large stringed instrument....it's fascinating to behold!     

I've emailed with Paul Richards, see if you can get his input from his Facebook page:

Best of luck & cheers!!  
Back to Top
Formentera Lady View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1361
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Formentera Lady Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2011 at 16:05
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I only listened to a little of it, but it's in 14/8 for a start, which is worth mentioning. You might also bring up the ostinato.

14/8? Sounds more like 6/8 in the beginning, which change later to 8/8 which is phrased like 3/8 followed by 5/8, and in the end it is 5/8
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2011 at 00:45
Originally posted by Formentera Lady Formentera Lady wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I only listened to a little of it, but it's in 14/8 for a start, which is worth mentioning. You might also bring up the ostinato.

14/8? Sounds more like 6/8 in the beginning, which change later to 8/8 which is phrased like 3/8 followed by 5/8, and in the end it is 5/8

From Fripp's diary:

10.24    Guitar Meeting at 10.00 to address holding the form & the pattern of Eye Of The Needle as one complete piece. 

Section One
13/8 16 bars
Am 1-4 / Cm 5-8 / Am 9-12 / F#m 13-16

Section Two
4/4 20 bars
Am 1-4 / Dm 5-8 / Am 9-12 / F#m 13-16 / F#m 17-20

Section Three
12 bars
13/8 Am 1-4 / 4/4 Dm 5-8 / Am 9-12

Coda
5/4    F#m 1 / Am 2 / C#m 3 / Am 4
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2011 at 13:48
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

From Fripp's diary:

10.24    Guitar Meeting at 10.00 to address holding the form & the pattern of Eye Of The Needle as one complete piece. 

Section One
13/8 16 bars
Am 1-4 / Cm 5-8 / Am 9-12 / F#m 13-16

Section Two
4/4 20 bars
Am 1-4 / Dm 5-8 / Am 9-12 / F#m 13-16 / F#m 17-20

Section Three
12 bars
13/8 Am 1-4 / 4/4 Dm 5-8 / Am 9-12

Coda
5/4    F#m 1 / Am 2 / C#m 3 / Am 4
 
I think we all fail Stack ... composed! Not free form as he can be and often is.
 
That professor is going to give us all a bad grade, except you! You get invited to play with!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2011 at 16:56
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

From Fripp's diary:

10.24    Guitar Meeting at 10.00 to address holding the form & the pattern of Eye Of The Needle as one complete piece. 

Section One
13/8 16 bars
Am 1-4 / Cm 5-8 / Am 9-12 / F#m 13-16

Section Two
4/4 20 bars
Am 1-4 / Dm 5-8 / Am 9-12 / F#m 13-16 / F#m 17-20

Section Three
12 bars
13/8 Am 1-4 / 4/4 Dm 5-8 / Am 9-12

Coda
5/4    F#m 1 / Am 2 / C#m 3 / Am 4
 
I think we all fail Stack ... composed! Not free form as he can be and often is.
 
That professor is going to give us all a bad grade, except you! You get invited to play with!

LOL  I cheated!  I've met Bob Fripp several times in the past & also played with one of his first Guitar Craft students (I was going to sign up for his first GC classes in West Virginia back in 1984, but life took me in a different direction).  

So, I consider myself an "honorary Craftie!"  I know a fair amount about the philosophy including dedication, discipline, communication and passing energy around in the group circle setting.  Marvelous to watch if you have ever been to a "League of Crafty Guitarists" show!  

Fripp is one of the most prolific writers & diarists that I've ever seen, and tremendous insight into his musical and compositional genius can be gleaned from his writings.   A person can get lost for days, wandering around in that stuff!!   

Cheers to all!  
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3797
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Pessimist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2011 at 19:19
Ostinatos pretty much throughout, minimalism, all stringed instruments, no percussion, harmony in 4ths and 5ths (quartal and quintal harmony, very common in anything by Fripp), non functional tonality, no cadences, 12 string (I think)... to help you out a little bit more
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
Back to Top
GaryISIS View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: March 01 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryISIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 10:31

Thanks for posting his site, cstack3, massively helpful!

Thanks Pessimist, can't believe I didn't pick up on minimalism. I should really revise this stuff more, you wouldn't think I was in the highest music class would you? Thanks again guys ;)
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 19:23
Originally posted by GaryISIS GaryISIS wrote:

Thanks for posting his site, cstack3, massively helpful!

Thanks Pessimist, can't believe I didn't pick up on minimalism. I should really revise this stuff more, you wouldn't think I was in the highest music class would you? Thanks again guys ;)

You are very welcome, Gary!  Best of luck on your assignment!!  
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5687
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2011 at 20:32
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

LOL  I cheated!  I've met Bob Fripp several times in the past & also played with one of his first Guitar Craft students (I was going to sign up for his first GC classes in West Virginia back in 1984, but life took me in a different direction).  
Cheers to all!  
 
I do have a question or two ... and these can get into the eccentricity of it all ...
 
There are a couple of videos on the net where Robert mentions Gurdgieff in passing. While not major itself, there are precedents and other examples, of how some music experiments and rehearsal techniques can go ... one gets the impression that you can just plug it in and go, and unless this is krautrock (see that BBC special -- it's massive and then some!!!! MASSIVE) .... there is something else going on.
Starting with an example:
 
In theater, when you want to clean up a scene, or an act in a play, there are a couple of things one can do. Here are some examples: (Notice we have a "script" and the "lines" already.)(All of these involve other players on the stage too!
 
1. You forget the "direction" and "script" for a minute. In this case the music
2. You have a "set" with various pieces, and you start playing with the "ideas" or "themes" of the play, and how you would say this or that to the other actors.
3. You can learn to do "physical things" on stage that you endup associating with the set to help you know your lines (not remember ... "know" ... there is a difference!)
4. The director might create similar situations that have nothing to do with the piece, so the actor would know which emotions to use ... (if you ever can, read Peter Brook's The Empty Space ... and I bet you that Robert has read it!)
 
That would translate like this for me ... in music!
 
1. You get together and decide you want to create a piece of music!
2. This is a group piece and we will all add to it.
3. We start on this chord.
.... and we go on for an hour. At the end of that hour when we listened to the tapes we found a middle section that we liked and we want to recreate that. We find the piece on the tape, and we recreate it some. We find a way around it a bit more and how to start it, and probably end it.
 
The wierd thing, is, in his free form stuff, he might have a chord or note, but by the time an effect or something else is added and a loop is extended and it comes back and he adds something ... a lot of it is going to be total improvisation, although it might be said that he wants to stick to this or that chord and sound to add the equivalent of a coda or another part.
 
And the example that you had ... it was not as free form as it sounded or came out!
 
You know what? ... musicians are a strange breed!
 
Hehehe! Embarrassed  Wink
 
PS: ... one last bit ... you do know the biggest problem with actors on stage or film, right? ... not listening to each other, and working with what they are hearing -- which often times makes the response/reaction even easier to come by! Guess what Robert wanted to achieve? ... and it was the same with Peter Brook and his theater experiments ... and you must see his film on Gurdjieff (Meetings with Remarkable Men) ... and that ending will blow you to smithereens! --- and just imagine music hitting that point! ... yeah ... just imagine!


Edited by moshkito - March 15 2011 at 20:38
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.133 seconds.