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Topic ClosedVdGG vs Jethro Tull

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Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
71 [50.35%]
70 [49.65%]
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BarryGlibb View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 06:57
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

One of the most influential and original progressive rock bands ever
 
vs.

A one note gimmick band with an eccentric gimmicky frontman.
 
Influential to whom? The group of zealots on this forum who have actually heard of them? The little band of Canterbury groupies who actually wasted their allowances to buy their albums in the 70s? They could have really used your help back when it mattered. Hell, their record company even gave up on them.

"A one note gimmick band"? Tull explored a vaster array of music, from blues to jazz to hard rock to progressive to folk. And guess what? They actually sold albums -- millions of them -- because Ian Anderson composed songs that a wide cross-section of people loved. I know you're shocked, but yes there are those who enjoy listening to songs that don't meander all over hell with singing that would give an opera director a nervous twitch -- perhaps even a stroke. VdGG in large enough doses can cause anything from eczema to grand mall seizures in AD/HD patients.
Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

How is this even a close vote?
 
Well, considering this forum has the highest concentration of VdGG fans in the world, I am sure all fifty will vote for their band.
 
Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

By the way, David Jackson is the superior flautist. Ian Anderson is the flute equivalent of Michael Angelo Batio. Tasteless and overly flashy for flashiness sake. David Jackson's flute parts are far more tasteful and beautiful.
 
By the way, Ian Anderson is also a master acoustic guitarist, a damn good blues harpist, not to mention adept at mandolin, mandocello, saxophone and bass guitar. As far as David Jackson, is he still working as a school teacher in order to make ends meet when he can't find a gig? Whatever. 


Spot on "The Dark Elf" a well constructed argument. You win...Tull forever!
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bucka001 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:19
Originally posted by BarryGlibb BarryGlibb wrote:


Spot on "The Dark Elf" a well constructed argument. You win...
 
Well, aside from his valid opinion of liking Tull over VdGG, you're wrong BG... it's not a winning (or well-constructed) argument. VdGG has a pretty huge cult following all over the world; on the tour they just finished, they played several shows to 1,500 - 2,500 fans in London, Glasgow, Utrecht, Prague, and concerts in Italy. A short-ish tour, 2 1/2 weeks. Those aren't numbers at all like Tull used to pull (obviously VdGG were a moderately successful band, and Tull were mega-stars) but it's respectable and there are a lot of musicians who would kill for VdGG's "lack of success."
 
But I'll say this about Big Elf. Great blog/website. And for a guy who doesn't like VdGG (which is totally cool; many of my own friends have a problem with Peter's voice), I thought it very professional that he included Pawn Hearts in his list of important prog albums. Especially when he laid the groundwork for being subjective rather than objective (so, he could have excluded them and been covered by his ground rules). If I was doing a blog or book on important prog albums, there are several that I can't stand that I'd be tempted to exclude, but I would probably put them in at the end of the day because, even if I don't like them, they're important within the genre. So, props to Big Elf (even besides the Pawn Hearts inclusion; it's just a fun blog), he's definitely one up on Bradley Smith (who came out with a terrible prog/art rock book years ago that excluded Gentle Giant and VdGG because he didn't like them) and Will Romano (whose book is also woefully lacking).
jc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:27
Another case of chalk and cheese..

I tend to listen to more VDGG than Tull.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 09:43
VdGG all the way!!!!
I look up, I'm almost blinded

by the warmth of what's inside me

and the taste that's in my soul,

but I'm dead inside as I stand alone...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 10:14
Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

But I'll say this about Big Elf. Great blog/website. And for a guy who doesn't like VdGG (which is totally cool; many of my own friends have a problem with Peter's voice), I thought it very professional that he included Pawn Hearts in his list of important prog albums. Especially when he laid the groundwork for being subjective rather than objective (so, he could have excluded them and been covered by his ground rules). If I was doing a blog or book on important prog albums, there are several that I can't stand that I'd be tempted to exclude, but I would probably put them in at the end of the day because, even if I don't like them, they're important within the genre. So, props to Big Elf (even besides the Pawn Hearts inclusion; it's just a fun blog), he's definitely one up on Bradley Smith (who came out with a terrible prog/art rock book years ago that excluded Gentle Giant and VdGG because he didn't like them) and Will Romano (whose book is also woefully lacking).
 
Why thank you, Buck. Your comments are appreciated. As far as the rancorous hyperbole, I was merely replying in kind to the absurd statement that Tull was "A one note gimmick band with an eccentric gimmicky frontman", which is perhaps the silliest thing I've read on this forum (which is saying a lot, as this forum is brimming with silliness) . We all have our favorites, of course, but it is important to put things in context (even with my admitted subjectivity), and in that sense Pawn Hearts is an amazing album, musically speaking. If it was simply an instrumental recording, I would have rated it even higher on my list. 
 
However, the idiosyncratic singing is the single element of the recording which drove hordes of potential fans away when VdGG was in their prime (and one could say the same thing regarding Gentle Giant to a point). Even an inaccessible album like A Passion Play (which bears some striking similarities to Pawn Hearts) went to #1 in the charts because it offered a more palatable vocal arrangement and the endearing English wit of Ian Anderson.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 10:35
I love Hammill's voice (it was an acquired taste in some cases; the later, harsher stuff took me a while, but I always dug the earlier stuff from the first VdGG era), but I think you are right that they would have been more successful if he'd reigned it in a bit. 
 
Tough call, because many of their fans love the growling vocals, etc., but that definitely has been a deterent when I tried to turn some friends onto them. Others loved it (my friends who liked metal and punk never had a prob with the vocals)
 
I do know that they were poised to 'break big' in '71 before Pawn Hearts was released. They headlined the Six Bob tour over Genesis and Lindisfarne, they appeared on the cover of Melody Maker as 'Britain's Most Fashionable Band', and the song 'Killer' was fairly well known in a lot of large circles. Then Pawn Hearts was actually released and just befuddled the hell out of the British public. I don't think even accessible vocals would have saved it. It's still a genius piece of work, but it was never going to find mass public favor... except in Europe, where it went to number one in Italy for several weeks* and found favor in a few other countries. So, go figure!
 
*Wonderful stories about how the band landed in Italy in February of '72, had no idea that both the album Pawn Hearts and the Theme One single were at #1 in the charts, got off the plane, and were greeted by cheering fans waving flags, etc (a sort of scaled down Beatles reception). When they asked the promoter who all the fans were waving at, he replied "You!" And they were like, "Why?"
 
"Because you're Van der Graaf Generator!!!" The band's reaction was "What??"
 
Every show was attended by thousands of fans singing along to every tune. At the first gig in Milan, the military was called in to fire smoke bombs and tear gas at the thousands of fans outside of the Teatro Massimo (where the band was playing) because a riot had started among those unable to get tickets for the soldout concert.
 
Later in '75, they played Rome to 16,500 fans (no support act), and got their trucks, with all of the gear, stolen after the concert. The whole three week tour was cancelled (and they would have made tons of dough) and that, more than anything, really crippled the band's psyche. They were never quite the same mentally after that even though they put out Still Life and World Record in the next year.


Edited by bucka001 - April 12 2011 at 10:37
jc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 20:18
I find VDGG's music much more interesting, satisfying, challenging and consistent than anything I have heard from Tull...but have made some fine music though.  Still, Van Der Graaf Generator gets my vote.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2011 at 21:26
Though he has undeniably a distinct style, I refuse to put down love-hate reactions to Hammill's singing only to quirk (which is as if to say it's entirely down to the listener and nothing to do with the singing style whatsoever).  It is because his delivery is heavily overwrought and melodramatic.  Some people love it that way (Bruce Dickinson has millions of fans for instance) and some dislike it.  Ian Anderson can also get a bit overwrought but is a lot more reined in in comparison. 

As for the poll, Tull, I just like them much more. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2011 at 12:31
VDGG, but Tull also excellent Hug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2011 at 12:31
VdGG are the best)))))))))))
Would you catch the final words of mine?
Would you catch my words???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2011 at 15:29
I like VDGG a lot, but I prefer Jethro.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2011 at 15:55
One for Tull
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 10:27
VdGG won!
Would you catch the final words of mine?
Would you catch my words???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 10:54
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

One of the most influential and original progressive rock bands ever
 
vs.

A one note gimmick band with an eccentric gimmicky frontman.
 
Influential to whom? The group of zealots on this forum who have actually heard of them? The little band of Canterbury groupies who actually wasted their allowances to buy their albums in the 70s? They could have really used your help back when it mattered. Hell, their record company even gave up on them.

"A one note gimmick band"? Tull explored a vaster array of music, from blues to jazz to hard rock to progressive to folk. And guess what? They actually sold albums -- millions of them -- because Ian Anderson composed songs that a wide cross-section of people loved. I know you're shocked, but yes there are those who enjoy listening to songs that don't meander all over hell with singing that would give an opera director a nervous twitch -- perhaps even a stroke. VdGG in large enough doses can cause anything from eczema to grand mall seizures in AD/HD patients.
Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

How is this even a close vote?
 
Well, considering this forum has the highest concentration of VdGG fans in the world, I am sure all fifty will vote for their band.
 
Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

By the way, David Jackson is the superior flautist. Ian Anderson is the flute equivalent of Michael Angelo Batio. Tasteless and overly flashy for flashiness sake. David Jackson's flute parts are far more tasteful and beautiful.
 
By the way, Ian Anderson is also a master acoustic guitarist, a damn good blues harpist, not to mention adept at mandolin, mandocello, saxophone and bass guitar. As far as David Jackson, is he still working as a school teacher in order to make ends meet when he can't find a gig? Whatever. 
The first paragraph is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard (but HH was being ignorant too, so understandable).

The second paragraph makes me wonder why you listen to prog.

The third paragraph is just a weak excuse. For it to be anything other than that, you'd have to assume everywhere else VdGG is a hated band, but they're just little known.

The fourth paragraph: the Ian Anderson point is irrelevant to what he said, and the David Jackson point is just ignorant beyond belief.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 11:15

I don't think I would be in love with music as much as I am if it wasn't for VDGG
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2011 at 11:26
JT of course.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2011 at 09:48
Shocked I was sure that VdGG have won! Where are you, Hammill/Banton/Evans/(Jackson) fans???????
Would you catch the final words of mine?
Would you catch my words???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2011 at 10:36
Van der Graaf's career was much more concise and less all over the map than Tull's, althoughTull had A Passion Play.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2011 at 17:51
While I really enjoy VDGG, they can't beat tull.
Tull have at least a dozen strong remasters, while Graaf only have half a dozen
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2011 at 21:22
J-Tull all the way
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