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Topic: Are the Doors co-inventors of jazz-rock? Posted: April 14 2011 at 16:22
Now this may sound like a mad question at first, but give it some thought. Listen to tracks like "The End", "When the Music's Over" or "Rider's on the Storm". Aren't the scales Krieger and Manzarek are playing very jazzy? Aren't those jazz chords Manzarek is hammering in "Riders on the Storm"? And what about the drumming of John Densmore; it is definitely very jazz inspired. So is that question really that mad? Of course there always is a blues side to the Doors too, but jazz is firmly grounded in blues. The Doors approach to jazz-rock is just very different than that of typical jazz-rock bands. But that approach is certainly there.
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 17:09
I could (and often have!) written pieces on the merits of the Doors; but co-inventors of jazz-rock is not one of their claims to fame by a long stretch of the imagination. Improvisation and invention are sometimes 'jazzy' but that's not jazz or jazz-rock.
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 18:13
I dont think that is mad at all. Now I wouldn't consider them the inventors of jazz rock but they were certainly one of the insperations for jazz rock along with other west coast psychadellic bands. Its been well documented that The Greatfull Dead had a huge influence on jazz rock and fusion especially Miles Davis but I hear and see alot of Doors influence in jazz rock too especially on the eastern side of the atlantic.
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 19:04
Hi,
A little jazz inspired also in the Whiskey Bar ... !! but that one is more Kurt Weill and Bertold Brecht'ian than anything else.
I'm thinking something ... hang in there for a sec!
The Doors, musically, are not "conventional". Take away a song or two ... it's about breaking most conventions on anything! I seriously doubt that Jim Morrison cared if it was called this or that or this or that ... he just wanted this or that for the backing and the guys were good enough to do it and add to it. I did not think, and I will listen to it again with a different ear now, that there is "jazz" in there ... albeit, it was pretty obvious that places like San Francisco and Los Angeles (specially the haut-class at UCLA where they were from and met), were not exactly immune to the jazz scene and some of the monster big names already by that time.
But I kinda thought a little different ... people have this idea that just because the music changed or ... we went sour for 23 seconds ... that it is jazz ... or this or that ... and it doesn't have to be. Sometimes it is simple de-tuning of a chord or note ... or something different ... and at times, just letting it all go crazy and haywire, is a way of being different. And it might be a jazz lick or chord, but more often than not, the intuitive side of the work ... might be ... I just took my hand, turned it left ways and rubbed them this way, and the sound and effect it gave us was ... this ... for so many seconds ... and when we look at it musically, we can't define it ... but it sure sounds like a jazz something or other?
I think, and this comes from my writing and how I see things inside myself as I am writing --- I do not do this "later" or "after" ... it's all spontaneous or not done! ... that I would not think in terms of ... I wanna do this jazz part here ... or this mumbo part here ... your mind just says ... I wanna do this that feels like this and your hand turns and you go with it and then add this to it ... and you have something different ... which of course, musically, MIGHT sound a bit jazz like ... but in reality? ... we can't say ... ! We didn't create it.
It is likely ... but not one of the main influences in almost ALL the music that came out of the Los Angeles area ... with the exception of Frank Zappa.
In my book, San Francisco had a lot more jazz than Los Angeles ... and it was more visible and respected. Los Angeles was always about the star and the studio and this and that ... and it really was never considered a music mecca ... so SF had the Fillmore, but LA ended up with the Whiskey A GoGo, and then The Roxy, and of course ... the Cinerama Dome and the Aquarius Theater. 2 of these were film/studio power places. One of them was owned by someone that became a major name in music as a producer. The other was owned by a small time man that didn't care for the whole thing, but he liked the music ... and both of these last two only did rock music! ... jazz? ... that ain't music.
At that time, some jazz DID start making a name for itself in LA. Willie Davis (Green Bay Packers) and even Kareem Abdul Jabbar (UCLA and Lakers) ---another UCLA connection!!!!! --- ended up in radio doing doing very well known, respected and appreciated radio shows. I think that Willie was also the owner of one radio station that did all jazz ... instead of the usual ... one hour per week bullsh*t! We're talking about 1971/72/73 and 74 or so ...
But I am not sure that any of us, for example, can name major jazz folks that were from LA proper and made it in LA with their music ... most of them left and went to Europe ... because LA only likes stars and perfume and smog!
Edited by moshkito - April 14 2011 at 19:40
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 19:42
Once Manzarek got hold of a Rhodes (L.A. Woman, Riders on the Storm) there was some jazz-rock there, later used or ripped off, depending on the point of view, by Steely Dan. But no I don't see them really as a precursor. Though I guess they were...JABFLA, which always counts for something.
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 19:59
aginor wrote:
just look at Chicago (the band) fusing the Doors like psych rock with brass band so it works in different ways so to speak
Chicago, was much more blues influenced, or at least ... acknowledged than otherwise.
But I think they took their cue more from big band and then experimental composers (they even have a piece about Varese! ... and it wasn't to thank Zappa!) ... and extended pieces, that included their own jams in the middle ... however, on a compositional level I would give them a lot of credit, because they took those improvisational pieces and made the pieces come off a lot better, more "classical", and obviously with a much more interesting musical connection and creativity ... something that was not always associated with rock musicians at all!
But it's not hard to find a slight link/connection and say ... ohhh ... there's a little Chuck Mangione right there, or a little Herb Alpert ... or similar ... but it was done with a much educated and studied musical knowledge than most pop/rock bands ... the way the horns were used in Chicago, were as an orchestral arrangement ... NOT used within a pop/rock music context at all! This is important! Most rock bands only used standard hooks and bridges and chord changes by comparison without any music connection or knowledge. Chicago's work in their first 4 or 5 albums is excellent in showing what a well rehearsed and intelligent group of musicians could do ... and do well!
Edited by moshkito - April 14 2011 at 20:06
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 21:16
The Doors were far more blues-based than the occasional jazzy number, particularly on the L.A. Woman album. L.A. Woman is brimming with either unadulterated blues or blues hybridization: "Been Down So Long", "The Cars Hiss by My Window", "The Changeling", "Crawling King Snake" (a John Lee Hooker tune), "L'America" and "The Wasp".
The same can be said for Morrison Hotel, with blues tunes like "Roadhouse Blues", "You Make Me Real", "The Spy" and Maggie M'Gill".
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Posted: April 14 2011 at 21:20
They were definitely putting jazz in their psych blues-rock, but they weren't doing the jazz and rock fusion, even if now it's tempting to assign their attempts to that line of musical development. And I think that all those bands doing jazz covers of Riders On The Storm are just rewriting history subliminally, albeit in a beautiful manner.
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Posted: April 15 2011 at 02:17
As I said, there approach was different.; they did not have those odd meters, for example. So I did not mean they were precursors of the jazz-rock as it finally evolved. But those jazz influences can certainly be heard in their music. It is not for nothing they interpreted a Kurt Weill song Weill was strongly influenced by jazz.
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Posted: April 15 2011 at 04:21
earlyprog wrote:
The only jazz that is noticable to me is in The Soft Parade (the track), but this is a parade of styles and why not a jazz section.
Great track by the way!
Oh, there is a lot more jazz in the Doors, as I already pointed out. The scales Krieger and Manzarek play on several tracks, and definitely Densmore's drumming on them. He is a very underestimated drummer; I personally think he is excellent.
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Posted: April 16 2011 at 17:54
BaldFriede wrote:
earlyprog wrote:
The only jazz that is noticable to me is in The Soft Parade (the track), but this is a parade of styles and why not a jazz section.
Great track by the way!
Oh, there is a lot more jazz in the Doors, as I already pointed out. The scales Krieger and Manzarek play on several tracks, and definitely Densmore's drumming on them. He is a very underestimated drummer; I personally think he is excellent.
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Posted: April 16 2011 at 18:03
BaldFriede wrote:
Now this may sound like a mad question at first, but give it some thought. Listen to tracks like "The End", "When the Music's Over" or "Rider's on the Storm". Aren't the scales Krieger and Manzarek are playing very jazzy? Aren't those jazz chords Manzarek is hammering in "Riders on the Storm"? And what about the drumming of John Densmore; it is definitely very jazz inspired. So is that question really that mad? Of course there always is a blues side to the Doors too, but jazz is firmly grounded in blues. The Doors approach to jazz-rock is just very different than that of typical jazz-rock bands. But that approach is certainly there.
MMMMhh....
While i agree that LA Woman has some jazz or jazz-rock, and that the brass arrangement of Soft Parade are jazzy.... i don't think their first two albums hold much jazz-rock
Music's Over is mostly bluesy to my ears, and The End is more Indian-raga influenced.
----------------------
as for drummer using jazz-inspired playing, Ginger Baker and Bill Ward (Sabbath), Ed Cassidy (Spirit) did that too.... yet Sabs are never considered anywhere close to jazzy, Spirit neither....
Cream is a tad different though: Baker & Bruce hated each other but the only point they agreed upon is that Cream was a Jazz group, they just never told Clapton.
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Posted: April 16 2011 at 19:26
Spencer Dryden from The Jefferson Airplane was a jazz drummer prior to his rock career. There are times you can hear it but not a lot. There is that 9 minute instrumental thing on After Bathing at Baxters called Spaye Chaynge that I thought had some jazz in it and Dryden kind of led it that way. But overall neither the Airplane nor the Doors or many that came frorm that time had the chops to play the kind of Jazz that would become the fusion later to come. I think it would be a stretch to say these groups had any influence on musicians that did those things.
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Are the Doors co-inventors of jazz-rock?
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