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Topic ClosedAre the Doors co-inventors of jazz-rock?

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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2011 at 03:05
It appears I was not understood. Of course the Doors did not play those chops; if they had they would clearly be the inventors of jazz-rock, and I would not need to ask the question. But there is an overall very jazzy feeling to many of their tracks, as I pointed out, a lot more than in other bands. Just listen to Densmore's drumming in "When the Music's Over".


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2011 at 12:10
As usual, The Beatles also invented jazz-rock LOL
 
No, seriously. U Know ny Name (look up the Number).
 
Only preceded by Zappa's Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin and some early Soft Machine.
 
Other jazz inspired bands include Pink Floyd (Pow R. Toc H.H.P. Lovecraft (That's how much I love you), Traffic (Giving to you; No Time to Live), Fifty Foot Hose (Fantasy), East Of Eden (Stable of the Sphinx), Touch (Down at Circe's Place; Seventy-Five), Jethro Tull, Nirvana (Requiem to John Coltrane), Jimi Hendrix (Moon Turn the Tides), The Nice but most notably Spirit.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 09:59
No, definitely not for me. The Doors were arty, and allied to beat poets etc, but it's a tenuous connection to jazz-rock. Plus only Manzarek was a true quality musician. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2017 at 22:31
Co-Inventors,? I do not know but I have heard some Jazz that was so similar to their sound that it isn't even an argument. I believe it was called Hard Bop?
 
 
Conjunction Mars reminds me of the doors. But this was made when the Doors were hot already.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2017 at 06:43
Yes of course. I'm surprised anyone would argue they were not jazz influenced. Co-inventors of jazz rock? Quite possibly. They were essentially a fusion rock band; blues, rock 'n' roll, jazz, a bit of psychedelia thrown in for good measure. It's all there.

Ray's keyboard playing and Jon's drumming are clearly jazz influenced. On the sleeve notes to the debut album it says Jon Densmore was an 'aspiring jazz drummer'

They were an imporant band in the evolution of prog rock too IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2017 at 09:16
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Doors were far more blues-based than the occasional jazzy number, particularly on the L.A. Woman album. L.A. Woman is brimming with either unadulterated blues or blues hybridization: "Been Down So Long", "The Cars Hiss by My Window", "The Changeling", "Crawling King Snake" (a John Lee Hooker tune),  "L'America" and "The Wasp".
 
The same can be said for Morrison Hotel, with blues tunes like "Roadhouse Blues", "You Make Me Real", "The Spy" and Maggie M'Gill".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2017 at 09:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2017 at 11:03
John Densmore was trained as a jazz drummer, and Manzarek had a weak spot for it as well, so yes there are jazz influences. But jazz-rock? No.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2017 at 14:41
In live performances Led Zeppelin were jazzy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2017 at 01:50
Since, without reaching for the Observer Book of Jazz-Fusion, even a jazz-hating muppet such as I can rattle-off a list of formative and influential late 60s Jazz-Rock artists and toons that would not include The Doors then it is safe to assume that if The Doors haven't been credited with having been co-inventors (!) of Jazz-Rock early on in that 50 year interlude betwix then and now then they most probably weren't and aren't. FUll Circle (which I see no one has mentioned yet) has some elements of Jazz, but released in 1973 that can hardly be regarded as an early Jazz-Rock album.

And... btw, with regard to The Doors covering the Alabama Song (it's not called "Whisky Bar" - as one of the few, if only, songs that Brecht wrote in English and since it was named after an American state, it should, out of courtesy alone, be afforded its correct title). It is very clear from their butchery and subsequent murdering of Kurt Weill's music that they only chose this song for Bertolt Brecht's lyric, albeit that one little gender changeš in the lyric altered the entire meaning of the song so what Morrison sings bears no relation to what Brecht wrote. What began life as a louche jazz parody of popular music drinking songs, sung in the original opera by prostitutes moving from bar to bar looking for the next [pretty boy] client is now stripped of any musical parody and is reduced to being the very thing Brecht and Weill set out to parody. The Doors version simply isn't Jazz, man.



/edit: šAfter refreshing my memory by listening to the Doors version again, not that I needed reminding of just how wretchedly horrible it is, I forgot that as well as changing "next pretty boy" to "next little girl", Morrison omits the "next little dollar" verse so the song's meaning is completely inverted and not just the gender of its singer.


Edited by Dean - March 26 2017 at 02:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2017 at 02:14
It could be said the Doors did a fusion of musics ~ cabaret, rhythm & blues, vocal, pop, art ~ but unfortunately fusion with a capital 'F' was soon to become the staid and bland joining of modern jazz with hard rock, of which they could not do and wisely didn't try.   They did improvise, it's true, but by the 1950s improvisation no longer belonged to jazz/blues exclusively.   Further, no jazz, jazzrock, fusion or other musician would ever in their right mind refer to The Doors as having anything to do with any jazz of any kind.

Fun band though.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2017 at 04:22
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

It could be said the Doors did a fusion of musics ~ cabaret, rhythm & blues, vocal, pop, art ~ but unfortunately fusion with a capital 'F' was soon to become the staid and bland joining of modern jazz with hard rock, of which they could not do and wisely didn't try.   They did improvise, it's true, but by the 1950s improvisation no longer belonged to jazz/blues exclusively.   Further, no jazz, jazzrock, fusion or other musician would ever in their right mind refer to The Doors as having anything to do with any jazz of any kind.
I don't think the cabaret aspect can be stated enough as that is where the jazz element comes from and that is a million miles away from the Jazz that infuses Jazz Fusion. While cabaret is a wide catchall term that refers to the venue it was performed in more than identifying the kind of music performed, as Brian put it on the previous page (and six years hence) the Doors played lounge music, born out of swing era jazz but slowed down, stripped down and made portable - to be performed in nightclubs as patrons dined out on veal ('don't forget to tip your server') - a far cry from the cool jazz of Dave Brubeck that initially influenced Manzarek. And that is reflected in Manzarek's instrument of choice: the Vox Continental, a stripped down and portable rival to the ubiquitous Hammond but with a brighter, thinner sound that is so characteristic of many of their songs.


Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


Fun band though.
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Wishful Sinful was one of the first singles I ever bought - I loved the orchestration and use of English horn on that song - From memory, this was the only Doors song that touched on Baroque Pop though others have orchestral arrangements, but it's certainly fun.


Edited by Dean - March 26 2017 at 05:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2017 at 08:29
I would say that the Doors invented Cocktail Lounge Rock. Theses guys were way too obsessed with the bossa nova.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2017 at 12:27
Jazz influenced rock (at times), tis all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2017 at 04:07
Well Ray cited Miles' Milestones as a favourite of his and fair enough says I. Robbie Krieger certainly grew into a fusion direction. But they had a such a hybrid of styles it may be more important to show at they did with them which was an audio (mainly) theatrical style.

They were quite structured pieces unlike usual jazz bop head / improv. Spanish Caravan was originally based around a late 19th C Spanish piece which is a bit close to plagiarism for comfort. But the rock song harmonies had a unique flow and identity harmonically which is where the jazz was used.

Light My Fires iv Minor to IV Major 6 inversion riff is a quick example whereas the intro is more Bach oriented.

LA Woman was so jazzy loungey (when it wasn't blues) that the producer told them he wanted nothing to do with it. But The Doors were too smart to make a bland album - always a danger with jazz. They made a great one. Or rather, another great one.

All musics were the tools of their trade so it's not easy to pin some numbers down too easily.

The thing with jazz harmony is it allows more ways to branch off harmonically than a blues scale yet they were very classically structured. Blues classical just won't really work. I recall in Beethoven's Aspassionata sonata a brief moment which could have been a 12 bar type riff for a bar... So yes, very jazz in places, very classical in others.

The thing with jazz drums is that they play from the cymbals down unlike blues and rock which is in the pocket drumming. A lot of jazz fans hate jazz rock for the back beat which to some destroys the jazz - thy have a point. Fusion is different (more jazz drums and a lot heavier than bop or cool  but with loads of jazz harmony  and yet less back beat) and this was where Krieger went with his records. Manzarek was more classical and structured - he did a nice Carmina Burana for starters.

The Doors used everything there was with fine taste to create their unique rock. But developing jazz rock? Or fusion? Not really - the concerts were rock theatrical performances but I doubt a jazz musician would have listened to get ideas. The records  were great rock but a jazz muso would be checking the Soft Machine or Miles. Jazz was part of the engine oil to make the material rather than a development of the new genre.

Simply... it's complicated.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2017 at 14:36
The simple answer is...no, but there were some jazzy  bits in their music from time to time.

An interesting article even if it's Wiki...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_fusion


Edited by dr wu23 - April 03 2017 at 14:40
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