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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bootleg alert
    Posted: May 04 2011 at 04:55
As we find bootlegs added to the database on a regular basis, I thought it would be good to have one dedicated thread to report them. Here's some Zeppelin bootlegs for starters:


http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=20108

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24824

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=31071
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 05:45
Good idea.

Well done that man!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 07:30
Indeed, if we start adding Led Zep bootlegs, we'll need a bigger web site.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 07:31
I have bought the occasional bootleg many years ago.  I can't think of any that were really worth having.  Terminate them from this site with extreme prejudice!!!!
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 07:51
There are plenty of similar items on PA. Some of them are offered in respected music stores, it's not easy to prove that CD X and DVD Y are bootlegs.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 07:59
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

There are plenty of similar items on PA. Some of them are offered in respected music stores, it's not easy to prove that CD X and DVD Y are bootlegs.


Very true. That is why I started with Led Zeppelin, which are an easy case as their official discography is limited and very well known.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 09:25
A few suspicious Yes releases too, this one being the most obvious.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 09:29

I've had a look at all three of those. I think they are all legitimately available in high street shops (in the case of the one added by mandi, probably an Italian Walmart). I don't think Rushfan4 and Snobb would have added albums which were not legitimately available.

I think the issue with these more to do with the licencing, they will have been released under some sort of licence not required arrangement. As has been said, there are a lot of that type of release scattered across the site, including the entire "Inside (band name) DVD series, which claims to "require complete artistic independence".
 
Bottom line is that while these releases are dubious, and do not from part of the official discography, I don' t think they are bootlegs in the traditional sense.
 
It's a topic worthy of discussion of course, but I personally think in these cases, there is enough legitimacy to their distribution to allow them to stay.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 10:02
Yes, sublicensing is different than bootleging. Quite a complicated issue indeed. [Long story told short, sublicensing releases are legal, but I don't think we should add them unless they contribute with new material - which is highly unlikely.]

As for the three entries that I reported, that of Snobb also appears on Discogs as an unofficial release and on RYM as a bootleg, so I guess this can be considered settled.
Regarding Scott's entry I think it's impossible for this to be a sub-licensing because the Australian tour wasn't previously released and you as far as I know you can't "sub-license" previously unreleased material. This "label" that released this DVD sells through Amazon Marketplace and seems to have many other releases for sale too. So I can't say I'm 100% sure, but they don't show up on any other database either (like Discogs or RYM).
Which means Mandy's entry is the one with the highest chances of being a genuine sublicensed edition, actually. LOL Which I don't think we should keep, either; even if it's genuine, it breaches PA policy as it only duplicates previously added material. 

Edited by harmonium.ro - May 04 2011 at 10:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 10:27
Hmmm....I can't remember adding that particular Led Zeppelin DVD.  I suspect that it must have come up while I was on Amazon and since it wasn't listed here, I added it.  Not exactly sure why, unless I was adding another DVD or CD that I did have and while I was at it decided to add this one too.  From time to time I will scan new releases on AllMusic Guide and if they apply to PA or MMA bands I will add them to the database.  I don't see this one listed on AllMusicGuide though, so I have to assume that it must have come up while I was on Amazon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 10:50
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

A few suspicious Yes releases too, this one being the most obvious.
 
No, although this is another Yes release of dubious value, I have seen this in the shops (albeit with a different cover).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 10:57
I've seen it too. What's odd is it's not really extended versions at all; if memory serves, it's actually from the SLO shows that became Keys to Ascension.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 11:00
I do have that Yes Extended Versions CD.  There are a number of bands that are included in the series.  There is a Kansas Extended Versions which is basically the same as their King Biscuit Flower Hour performance.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 11:08
I think we are not a bunch of lawyers here and it's not our task to do detectives' job. 
If albums are distributed by respected stores and services I see no reason to delete or not include them on PA.

Personally if I have doubts about some album's legitimacy I don't add it to PA. But we can't say, once and forever, to all PA members what they should not add to the database.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 11:49
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

I think we are not a bunch of lawyers here and it's not our task to do detectives' job.


No one asks the E&O team to do a detective job, I think that judging upon presented evidence is reasonable enough.

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

If albums are distributed by respected stores and services I see no reason to delete or not include them on PA.


Respected stores sell mostly anything though. Remember when a few weeks back a guy asked us here to add a Genesis bootleg he had bought at Wallmart? Right now I'm looking at the page of the Zeppelin DVD Scott added, and the EBay field in the page is offering to sell me " Led Zeppelin - Collectors Box Unauthorized 2DVDs $17.95" or "Led Zeppelin - Closer to Heaven (DVD, 2007)". And  Idon't know what are Amazon's standards, but Amazon Marketplace (the only place where that DVD can be bought) isn't Amazon, it's a place where anyone can sell (a sort of EBay held by Amazon).

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Personally if I have doubts about some album's legitimacy I don't add it to PA. But we can't say, once and forever, to all PA members what they should not add to the database.


"No bootlegs or unauthorized releases" is already asked on the album addition page, so if anyone would have your attitude this wouldn't be a problem, but obviously it isn't the case.


RE Yes, they have already plagued their own discography with cheap compilations and editions, they look dubious indeed but they are OK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 13:31
By the way, there are three bootlegs in the discography of Magma.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 14:28
We can discuss it to death, but put yourselves on admin's place. Would you immediately delete an album if you have somebody's report that it's a bootleg? I think no, you have to search through the web, spend a lot of time and I'm not sure you'll find the right answer.

Some bands have lists of bootlegs on their websites. It seems only in this case admin can delete the album with a light heart. 


Edited by NotAProghead - May 04 2011 at 14:29
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 14:47
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

We can discuss it to death, but put yourselves on admin's place. Would you immediately delete an album if you have somebody's report that it's a bootleg?


Of course not (and I have implied this in my previous post - see "judging upon presented evidence").
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 15:04
I'm happy to go with the consensus here of course, if the general view is they should go, I'll do the deeds.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2011 at 15:38
I lived and breathed Zep boots for years those are bootlegs, or "private/fanclub releases", but boots all the same

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