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Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
Posted: June 02 2011 at 11:24
Not enough hatred in this thread. It should be shut down until everyone gets less happy. Let's lock the thread until there's a mass economic crash and everyone gets laid off and children are dying in the streets!
Then we'll see what the populace then thinks of your then PRECIOUS John then Bonsteak, then! Muahahahahathenhahaha.
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
Posted: June 02 2011 at 11:29
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
He was good. I just don't like his style. But a recognizable one he has, for sure. Though there are less-than-great drummers (from a technical point of view) that also have 100% unique styles (like Lars Ulrich). Maybe it's because I dont really love more than a few Zeppelin songs, I'm not really a Bonham fan but I agree he was among the greats.
I didn't know being terrible and unable to keep time was a style.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: June 02 2011 at 12:09
Atavachron wrote:
tarkus1980's criticisms are fair, but the problem with his position is the same problem with saying Eddie Van Halen's influence "did unthinkable damage to three generations of guitarists" or that John Coltrane "ruined the saxophone"-- it doesn't really matter whether it's true or not; the impact is undeniable, here to stay, and has been integrated into modern playing as all important techniques are.
I have no idea of post-Coltrane jazz per se and cannot comment on that but EVH's influence WAS damaging to rock guitar. It is not my problem as a listener that rock guitarists and especially metal guitarists STILL want to imitate EVH; I will then simply seek out something else to listen to, which is what I do. If the listener is not important to the musician, the opposite holds true too; there is consonance only where some common ground can be derived, as simple.
I would not however blame EVH for those who imitated him because HE did play with a hell lot of style and personality. He had his excessive moments, yes, but so did *cough* Page *cough* and so did most celebrated rock guitarists for that matter. Unrelated, but as much as people love to crib about w**k, they only wake up to the sound of music when somebody's w**king hard, not when somebody's quietly "putting the song first". My views on Bonham are similar. His impact on rock drum styles may have been detrimental (though this too is exaggerated because it's overdependence on blastbeats and, later, triggers that's made rock drum playing boring) but HE was not nearly so mechanical himself.
With that said, I'd argue most prominent rock musicians ARE overrated. Not because their influence on rock is overestimated or they were not important to their own bands as much as is claimed but because prominent musicians attract fanboys in larger numbers than less famous ones and fanboys typically cannot believe there's anybody else worth listening to and routinely diss other musicians simply because they did not get the acclaim or recognition they deserved (and of course anything that the majority don't like is bad, right?). It is not my case that Bonham was not one of the greatest (in terms of influence and importance) rock drummers but people who don't even listen to other drummers like Paice or Ward before utterly dismissing them are deluded.
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
Posted: June 02 2011 at 14:36
Blacksword wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
He was good. I just don't like his style. But a recognizable one he has, for sure. Though there are less-than-great drummers (from a technical point of view) that also have 100% unique styles (like Lars Ulrich). Maybe it's because I dont really love more than a few Zeppelin songs, I'm not really a Bonham fan but I agree he was among the greats.
I didn't know being terrible and unable to keep time was a style.
Have you never heard Simon King from hawkwind?
I actually haven't.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: June 02 2011 at 16:43
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
He was good. I just don't like his style. But a recognizable one he has, for sure. Though there are less-than-great drummers (from a technical point of view) that also have 100% unique styles (like Lars Ulrich). Maybe it's because I dont really love more than a few Zeppelin songs, I'm not really a Bonham fan but I agree he was among the greats.
I didn't know being terrible and unable to keep time was a style.
He can keep time (awkwardly, I would say, but he does) and he has a clearly recognizable style, with his reliance on emphasizing the beats that most drummers don't with crash cymbals, his dislike for using the ride cymbal, the awkward, huge-sounding fills... Oh yes he has hisnown style, but as I said, technically he kind of sucks.
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 25882
Posted: June 03 2011 at 01:24
Bonham was a pretty amazing drummer that fitted Led Zep perfectly.The only reason I wouldn't include him in my top ten list is simply on the grounds of taste (not a heavy rock fan) and nothing else.
I agree with tarkus1980. As far as I know I'm the only person on earth who does. I searched the web for this. John Bonham is the most overrated drummer in rock. And I play drums so I know something.
John Bonham had a lot of skill, but his style gets on my nerves. He plays WAY TOO LOUD or not at all on most of their mellow songs. Personally, I wish he played more cymbal heavy like Keith Moon on their heavy songs. There's only a few songs where I DON'T complain about his drumming. As a sometimes drummer, I'd play most of his songs very different. In his defense, he had a sense of groove you don't see much with British drummers. But there's more to a good drummer than just groove. He played the same on half the Led Zeppelin songs. I think he's boring. I'd take Bill Bruford, Stewart Copeland, BJ Wilson (Procol Harum), or even Bill Ward or Ian Paice over him.
Too bad the millions of John Bonham followers can't tolerate the occasional dissenter. They must burn him at the stake. Look at tarkus1980's Led Zeppelin page and see how many Bonhamists attack him for blaspheming their drum God.
I agree John Bonham had a lot of skill, and I mean a lot of skill, but I think some of this has been lost due to his great groove. I am glad he did not play like Keith Moon because after listening too Moon and playing along there is a heavy reliance on triplets which can be quite boring. I know the same could be levelled at Bonham but the way he played that snare, tom, bass drum triplet is amazing and I have to admit to stealing that fill.
Personally I would not change a note of the way Bonham played but I have to admit being a punk devotee of Bonham definitely helped me in the late 80's when I played in bands because my style seemed to fit with everything from Metallica to Motley Crue.
I agree there is more to drumming than groove but I believe Bonham had this and if you listen to some of the work on Led Zeppelin IV there is a jazz feel to some of the tracks and some of the others remind me a little of Jeff Porcaro.
I would never say Bonham is boring but I definitely agree with you about Stewart Copeland who would always be in my top 3. There are not many drummers who sound like Copeland and there is a reason for that some of his playing is very complex espcially his hi-hat work. I also like Ian Paice and that fill in Black Night got me hooked before being blown about by Fireball I think the track is.
Interestingly the drummer which moved me from punk to branch out of that into something other than fast 4/4 was Bill Ward and from there I learned the whole of the Sabbath back catalogue and then Master of Puppets by Metallica.
As I have said before progressive rock and I always kept our distance because I felt it was just over playing but then I heard Bill Bruford on the album Yes and I have to admit I have enjoyed his playing ever since and even made me go back to listen to Close to the Edge by Yes which included the sort of technical over playing at the time I disliked. Strangely enough I have since gone on to follow the Bruford philosophy of why stick to 4/4, branch out to 3/4, 5/4, 12/8 etc and this led me on to listen to Ginger Baker, Clive Bunker, Phil Collins which led me to Peter Erskine and Steve Gadd.
I am now of the philosophy that listening to all these different musicians can greatly enrich ones playing, not exactly the philosophy I have always held but I suppose as we get older we become wiser.
If anything I usually hear him overhyped! I don't think I've personally heard him called overrated and usually gets huge kudos.
He was a good drummer IMO. Tough to compare styles, and as a drummer I prefer more technical/complex playing...but you need the essentials, which Bonham had and then some! Maybe not a beast, but I think he was a pretty good drummer.
If you only think he is a "pretty good drummer" I wondered who you preferred?
Not a beast? He was the very definition of beast in every way.
Well that's personal opinion. I could see that. Just saying from a technical/virtuoso standpoint one could say he was not too beastly. It's also difficult to compare, I mean different time periods, different styles of music. Point was he is a pretty damn good drummer, and I'm not even a huge LZ fan!
I know you meant 'beast' to mean high technical skills, but to be quite honest I think Bonham technically outdoes and provides far more variation than many drummers considered highly skilled, such as Neil Peart, Keith Moon, and Carl Palmer.
I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time. I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about.
I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band, I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical. I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.
I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.
He was good. I just don't like his style. But a recognizable one he has, for sure. Though there are less-than-great drummers (from a technical point of view) that also have 100% unique styles (like Lars Ulrich). Maybe it's because I dont really love more than a few Zeppelin songs, I'm not really a Bonham fan but I agree he was among the greats.
I didn't know being terrible and unable to keep time was a style.
Have you never heard Simon King from hawkwind?
Yes he was in Opal Butterly with Hawkwind's greatest front man Lemmy
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 25882
Posted: June 04 2011 at 09:02
misfit wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Not a beast? He was the very definition of beast in every way.
Well that's personal opinion. I could see that. Just saying from a technical/virtuoso standpoint one could say he was not too beastly. It's also difficult to compare, I mean different time periods, different styles of music. Point was he is a pretty damn good drummer, and I'm not even a huge LZ fan!
I know you meant 'beast' to mean high technical skills, but to be quite honest I think Bonham technically outdoes and provides far more variation than many drummers considered highly skilled, such as Neil Peart, Keith Moon, and Carl Palmer.
I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time. I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about.
I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band, I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical. I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.
I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.
Best
M
Palmer believed he had to try and play ahead of the tempo. I remember him explaining this at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in Birmingham UK (via a video recording not in person). CP at his peak was a force of nature. Listening back to the bootlegs of him playing in 1974 with ELP must have made a load of drummers at the time just want to give up!
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34050
Posted: June 04 2011 at 10:29
misfit wrote:
notesworth wrote:
I agree with tarkus1980. As far as I know I'm the only person on earth who does. I searched the web for this. John Bonham is the most overrated drummer in rock. And I play drums so I know something.
John Bonham had a lot of skill, but his style gets on my nerves. He plays WAY TOO LOUD or not at all on most of their mellow songs. Personally, I wish he played more cymbal heavy like Keith Moon on their heavy songs. There's only a few songs where I DON'T complain about his drumming. As a sometimes drummer, I'd play most of his songs very different. In his defense, he had a sense of groove you don't see much with British drummers. But there's more to a good drummer than just groove. He played the same on half the Led Zeppelin songs. I think he's boring. I'd take Bill Bruford, Stewart Copeland, BJ Wilson (Procol Harum), or even Bill Ward or Ian Paice over him.
Too bad the millions of John Bonham followers can't tolerate the occasional dissenter. They must burn him at the stake. Look at tarkus1980's Led Zeppelin page and see how many Bonhamists attack him for blaspheming their drum God.
I agree John Bonham had a lot of skill, and I mean a lot of skill, but I think some of this has been lost due to his great groove. I am glad he did not play like Keith Moon because after listening too Moon and playing along there is a heavy reliance on triplets which can be quite boring. I know the same could be levelled at Bonham but the way he played that snare, tom, bass drum triplet is amazing and I have to admit to stealing that fill.
Personally I would not change a note of the way Bonham played but I have to admit being a punk devotee of Bonham definitely helped me in the late 80's when I played in bands because my style seemed to fit with everything from Metallica to Motley Crue.
I agree there is more to drumming than groove but I believe Bonham had this and if you listen to some of the work on Led Zeppelin IV there is a jazz feel to some of the tracks and some of the others remind me a little of Jeff Porcaro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug7cR3WfJgA
I would never say Bonham is boring but I definitely agree with you about Stewart Copeland who would always be in my top 3. There are not many drummers who sound like Copeland and there is a reason for that some of his playing is very complex espcially his hi-hat work. I also like Ian Paice and that fill in Black Night got me hooked before being blown about by Fireball I think the track is.
Interestingly the drummer which moved me from punk to branch out of that into something other than fast 4/4 was Bill Ward and from there I learned the whole of the Sabbath back catalogue and then Master of Puppets by Metallica.
As I have said before progressive rock and I always kept our distance because I felt it was just over playing but then I heard Bill Bruford on the album Yes and I have to admit I have enjoyed his playing ever since and even made me go back to listen to Close to the Edge by Yes which included the sort of technical over playing at the time I disliked. Strangely enough I have since gone on to follow the Bruford philosophy of why stick to 4/4, branch out to 3/4, 5/4, 12/8 etc and this led me on to listen to Ginger Baker, Clive Bunker, Phil Collins which led me to Peter Erskine and Steve Gadd.
I am now of the philosophy that listening to all these different musicians can greatly enrich ones playing, not exactly the philosophy I have always held but I suppose as we get older we become wiser.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12581
Posted: June 04 2011 at 23:20
richardh wrote:
misfit wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Not a beast? He was the very definition of beast in every way.
Well that's personal opinion. I could see that. Just saying from a technical/virtuoso standpoint one could say he was not too beastly. It's also difficult to compare, I mean different time periods, different styles of music. Point was he is a pretty damn good drummer, and I'm not even a huge LZ fan!
I know you meant 'beast' to mean high technical skills, but to be quite honest I think Bonham technically outdoes and provides far more variation than many drummers considered highly skilled, such as Neil Peart, Keith Moon, and Carl Palmer.
I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time. I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about.
I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band, I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical. I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.
I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.
Best
M
Palmer believed he had to try and play ahead of the tempo. I remember him explaining this at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in Birmingham UK (via a video recording not in person). CP at his peak was a force of nature. Listening back to the bootlegs of him playing in 1974 with ELP must have made a load of drummers at the time just want to give up!
Well, I have absolutley no idea of technical drumming, but I do love Carl Palmer... more than Bonham certainly. And I do like Led Zeppeilin and John Bonham.
Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 19236
Posted: June 04 2011 at 23:46
Dellinger wrote:
richardh wrote:
misfit wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Not a beast? He was the very definition of beast in every way.
Well that's personal opinion. I could see that. Just saying from a technical/virtuoso standpoint one could say he was not too beastly. It's also difficult to compare, I mean different time periods, different styles of music. Point was he is a pretty damn good drummer, and I'm not even a huge LZ fan!
I know you meant 'beast' to mean high technical skills, but to be quite honest I think Bonham technically outdoes and provides far more variation than many drummers considered highly skilled, such as Neil Peart, Keith Moon, and Carl Palmer.
I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time. I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about.
I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band, I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical. I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.
I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.
Best
M
Palmer believed he had to try and play ahead of the tempo. I remember him explaining this at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in Birmingham UK (via a video recording not in person). CP at his peak was a force of nature. Listening back to the bootlegs of him playing in 1974 with ELP must have made a load of drummers at the time just want to give up!
Well, I have absolutley no idea of technical drumming, but I do love Carl Palmer... more than Bonham certainly. And I do like Led Zeppeilin and John Bonham.
I like both Bonham and Palmer. Neither is overrated or underrated. Now that guy that plays in Fall out Boy......
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
Posted: June 05 2011 at 04:25
Blacksword wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
He was good. I just don't like his style. But a recognizable one he has, for sure. Though there are less-than-great drummers (from a technical point of view) that also have 100% unique styles (like Lars Ulrich). Maybe it's because I dont really love more than a few Zeppelin songs, I'm not really a Bonham fan but I agree he was among the greats.
I didn't know being terrible and unable to keep time was a style.
Have you never heard Simon King from hawkwind?
I obviously know nothing about drummers or drumming as I think Simon King is f**king great! Tippy tappy tippy tappy......
Him and Lemmy on Space Ritual just doit for me so there!
Edited by akamaisondufromage - June 05 2011 at 04:32
Not a beast? He was the very definition of beast in every way.
Well that's personal opinion. I could see that. Just saying from a technical/virtuoso standpoint one could say he was not too beastly. It's also difficult to compare, I mean different time periods, different styles of music. Point was he is a pretty damn good drummer, and I'm not even a huge LZ fan!
I know you meant 'beast' to mean high technical skills, but to be quite honest I think Bonham technically outdoes and provides far more variation than many drummers considered highly skilled, such as Neil Peart, Keith Moon, and Carl Palmer.
I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time. I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about.
I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band, I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical. I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.
I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.
Best
M
Palmer believed he had to try and play ahead of the tempo. I remember him explaining this at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in Birmingham UK (via a video recording not in person). CP at his peak was a force of nature. Listening back to the bootlegs of him playing in 1974 with ELP must have made a load of drummers at the time just want to give up!
I do not doubt Carl Palmer's technical talent, especially his snare drum work, but he is definitely not a natural time keeper.
Not a beast? He was the very definition of beast in every way.
Well that's personal opinion. I could see that. Just saying from a technical/virtuoso standpoint one could say he was not too beastly. It's also difficult to compare, I mean different time periods, different styles of music. Point was he is a pretty damn good drummer, and I'm not even a huge LZ fan!
I know you meant 'beast' to mean high technical skills, but to be quite honest I think Bonham technically outdoes and provides far more variation than many drummers considered highly skilled, such as Neil Peart, Keith Moon, and Carl Palmer.
I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time. I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about.
I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band, I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical. I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.
I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.
Best
M
Palmer believed he had to try and play ahead of the tempo. I remember him explaining this at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in Birmingham UK (via a video recording not in person). CP at his peak was a force of nature. Listening back to the bootlegs of him playing in 1974 with ELP must have made a load of drummers at the time just want to give up!
Well, I have absolutley no idea of technical drumming, but I do love Carl Palmer... more than Bonham certainly. And I do like Led Zeppeilin and John Bonham.
I like both Bonham and Palmer. Neither is overrated or underrated. Now that guy that plays in Fall out Boy......
I have one of the Fall out Boy albums and it is Andy Hurley of which you speak and I agree he is good using that style pioneered by the likes of Peter Finestone from Bad Religion and Bill Stevenson from Black Flag, If you listen to Nothing Left Inside Bill shows the sort of technical understanding not usually heard on a Black Flag song.
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