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Miles Davis - Kind of Blue

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Mellotron Storm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mellotron Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
    Posted: August 27 2011 at 23:22
Originally posted by Man With Hat

Wow. And I thought I was the only one who felt KOB in the top 100 is absolutely inane! Glad to see I'm not.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 17:45
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by thehallway

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.


There was no Prog or Proto Prog or Psychedelia, not even Rock based Pop in 1958, as a fact even Blues based Rock was on diapers.

It's absolutely misleading to have that album in Prog Archives, not to mention the top 100.

No matter how good it is, send it to http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/ this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván

Yeah, big oversight on our part not to have that album on jazzmusicarchives, oh wait...Tongue
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx
Perhaps the best thing to do is just ignore albums you don't think belong in the top 100 that are there.  By the way is Kind Of Blue the only jazz album in it? 


Edited by Slartibartfast - August 30 2011 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 18:31
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by thehallway

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.


There was no Prog or Proto Prog or Psychedelia, not even Rock based Pop in 1958, as a fact even Blues based Rock was on diapers.

It's absolutely misleading to have that album in Prog Archives, not to mention the top 100.

No matter how good it is, send it to http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/ this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván


Yeah, big oversight on our part not to have that album on jazzmusicarchives, oh wait...Tongue
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx
Perhaps the best thing to do is just ignore albums you don't think belong in the top 100 that are there.  By the way is Kind Of Blue the only jazz album in it? 

 

I admit to not being an expert in the top 100 especially with the bottom bits changing somewhat often, but I'm pretty confident that KOB is the only purejazz album in it yes. (Unless another Davis album [ or Hancock album, or etc] snuck in there when I wasn't looking.) However, If there is another, I would object to that as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 18:32
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm

Originally posted by Man With Hat

Wow. And I thought I was the only one who felt KOB in the top 100 is absolutely inane! Glad to see I'm not.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 18:47
Originally posted by darkshade

Originally posted by thehallway

Originally posted by jammun

I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

You must admit though, that when it is in the TOP 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUMS, things are getting a bit silly. It's less of an issue if the album is hiding in some quiet corner of the site.

I appreciate though, that's it's difficult to come up with a system that further categorises what is already the hardest thing to categorise: art.



Yes. One has to wonder why so many members of this site gave out 5 star ratings for a Cool Jazz album on a Prog Rock site....



I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by J-Man


I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not?


people looking for some of the best jazz-rock/fusion albums


Edited by darkshade - August 30 2011 at 19:08
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:22
Originally posted by darkshade

Originally posted by J-Man


I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not?


people looking for some of the best jazz-rock/fusion albums

So they can't just ignore one album from the list? Confused Are they too lazy to read any of the reviews that describe it as a cool jazz album?  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:48
Argh, we're seriously arguing about this again?

I care about a lot of things that nobody else does, but I really don't understand caring about this.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:55
Originally posted by Henry Plainview

Argh, we're seriously arguing about this again?

I care about a lot of things that nobody else does, but I really don't understand caring about this.

I don't care about whether or not Kind of Blue (or anything, for that matter) is in the top 100 list. I care about other people getting pissed off about Kind of Blue being in the top 100. Tongue

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast


Yeah, big oversight on our part not to have that album on jazzmusicarchives, oh wait...Tongue
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx
Perhaps the best thing to do is just ignore albums you don't think belong in the top 100 that are there.  By the way is Kind Of Blue the only jazz album in it? 

Not the only one...But it''s a NON PROG album from 1958 (When not even Pop based Rock or Psychedelia where Born), released at least 9 years before Prog was born...Do you believe this is one of the Best 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK albums in History?

I agree that Bitches Brew is RELATED to a Prog site, but it's misleading to have a 1958 album as one of the best Prog albums ever...Please, Prog didn't remotely existed when Kind of Blue was released.

Do I believe Miles belong here? Not sure, but OK, Bitches Brew is important for evolution of Prog and Fusion, but we need some mechanism that stops albums that don't have the slightest relation with Prog to be considered one of the best Prog albums.

Iván.

Starti; Normally after protesting before added, I ignore albums that shouldn't be here (At least in my opinion), but having a 1958 non Prog album is a huge incoherence, that I believe can't be ignored.

Just beware, Miles has a 1945 album with no ratings yet, but also a 1954 album (Rock wasn't fully born yet) that is getting close to 4 stars Ouch






Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 30 2011 at 20:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:15
Originally posted by J-Man

 

I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:

Progarchives.com Homepage

A site dedicated to Prog Rock.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 30 2011 at 20:20
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by J-Man

 

I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:

Progarchives.com Homepage

A site dedicated to Prog Rock.

Iván

The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece.

Every album I review on PA is assessed based on the quality and emotional depth of the music - prog or not. People have different interpretations of what "prog" actually means, so I stay away from rating albums based on their progressive values. If there's a jazz, metal, ambient, folk, or whatever-other-genre masterpiece on this site, I'll rate it honestly. After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality?

I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100. Ermm

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 22:52
The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece.

A Kind of Blue is a great album, maybe a masterpiece, I DON'T DENY THAT

But our rules are clear:

 Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

To be rated with 5 stars in Prog Archives needs three inclusive conditions:

  1. Being Essential
  2. Being a masterpiece
  3. To be Progressive Rock
A Kind of Blue don't fulfills at least one of the three requisites, it may be a masterpiece, but will never be a masterpiece of Progressive Rock Music.

Originally posted by J-Man

  After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality?

Please don't change the issue, The Ninth Symphony of Beethoven is a masterpiece,.but doesn't belong here.

Rubén Blades album "Maestra Vida" is better than 90% of the albums here, but it shouldn't be in Prog Archives because it's some sort of Classic Salsa.

Kind of Blue is an excellent album, but doesn't belong here for millions of reasons, but most important, because Prog Archives has been created to be PROGRESSIVE ROCK STE and to help visitors understand the genre, visitors that will be mislead watching a Prog album from 1958.

Originally posted by J-Man

 I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100. Ermm

There are lots of Jazz albums here and nobody  is offended, as a fact I added Jean Luc Ponty, but Ponty has made Jazz that is related with Prog, I added OSIBISA who are now in Jazz Rock Fusion..I inherited a huge Jazz collection, I believe both are underrated

Tohpari Etnomission from Indonesia is a FANTASTIC Jazz Fusion band that deserves to be a Top 20 even in a PROG site, because they are more than related .

You can think whatever you want about progressive meanings, but the site banner clearly says  it: THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

JThis includes azz Rock fusion, even influential pure Jazz from the 70's or maybe late 60's may belong here, but A Kind of Blues belongs here as much as Louis Armstrong or Aretha Franklin belong here..It's Pure Jazz with no Fusion and much less related with Progressive Rock.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 30 2011 at 22:56
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Post Options Post Options   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2011 at 23:49
Many good points made. Kind of Blue has nothing to do with progressive rock music, or rock music in general. I am also not saying it is a masterpiece (It is). Think about someone who is trying to have the ultimate collection of prog albums; KoB is not going to be necessary in that quest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 02:19
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M


A Kind of Blue is a great album, maybe a masterpiece, I DON'T DENY THAT

But our rules are clear:

 Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

To be rated with 5 stars in Prog Archives needs three inclusive conditions:

  1. Being Essential
  2. Being a masterpiece
  3. To be Progressive Rock
A Kind of Blue don't fulfills at least one of the three requisites, it may be a masterpiece, but will never be a masterpiece of Progressive Rock Music.


I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock.

(personally I wouldn't give KOB a fivestar, though. There's atleast fifteen-twenty Miles albums that thrills me more. I think of it as jazz' own Citizen Kane. As in being extremely influential but not the most exiting thing ever to actually sit down and watch/listen to. Not anymore).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 05:08
Originally posted by J-Man

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by J-Man

 

I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:

Progarchives.com Homepage

A site dedicated to Prog Rock.

Iván

The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece.

Every album I review on PA is assessed based on the quality and emotional depth of the music - prog or not. People have different interpretations of what "prog" actually means, so I stay away from rating albums based on their progressive values. If there's a jazz, metal, ambient, folk, or whatever-other-genre masterpiece on this site, I'll rate it honestly. After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality?

I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100. Ermm

No one is saying they're offended J-Man. People are just pointing out the ridiculousness of that album being in that list. I gave it four stars because I too review things regardless of what genre they are...... yes, it's a masterpiece to a lot of people. It will never be a masterpiece of progressive rock though. Not because prog is better than jazz, but because you just can't be a masterpiece of a genre when the music has f**k all to do with that genre.

It's like saying that 2001: A Space Odyssey is the best Romantic Comedy film ever.

I'm not possessive of the top 100.......... but as I member of this site, I think it makes us look foolish when passers by see albums like that in the list. The system is flawed, not the people giving it those high reviews.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 06:13
Well, the problem here is basically the algorithm isn't it?  The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist.  Then albums like KOB could be excluded from the top 100 list, but then there's the problem of what gets excluded and what gets let in, which I'm sure we could all reach consensus on, right??? LOL

But wow, made it up to #56.  Consider it an honorary member.  Move on.




Edited by Slartibartfast - August 31 2011 at 06:25
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JonnyM79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 06:20
I have no problem with it being here. 

  Firstly it has the same shot at being in the top 100 as Love Beach, early Talk-Talk or countless other albums that are not prog but made by artists that at some other time in their careers made prog.  The difference is that its quality is so transcending of genre that even though it is not prog-rock, a site of people devoted to that genre still rate it so highly that it hits the list.  I find it hard to imagine that anybody who buys it through seeing it on this site will think "well that's a pile'o'sh*te - sounds nothing like Wish You Were Here"

  Secondly anybody exploring Jazz/Fusion pretty  much has to listen to it.  It's so influential that trying to understand any form of Jazz without listening to this (and that includes our beloved Fusion genre) is a bit like trying to understand rock or pop without listening to The Beatles.

  Thirdly asking reviewers to rate based on how stricltly music conforms to the prog-rock genre (by suggesting you remove stars from this album for not being "prog-rock" enough) would penalise the unusual and innovative - exactly the opposite of what we're trying to achieve.  Most people rate purely on quality and enjoyment, and rightly so.  I haven't rated KOB but if I ever do it's a nailed on 5 stars.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 10:39
 
Originally posted by JonnyM79




  Thirdly asking reviewers to rate based on how stricltly music conforms to the prog-rock genre (by suggesting you remove stars from this album for not being "prog-rock" enough) would penalise the unusual and innovative - exactly the opposite of what we're trying to achieve.  Most people rate purely on quality and enjoyment, and rightly so.  I haven't rated KOB but if I ever do it's a nailed on 5 stars.

Who is asking that?? Nobody! We're saying that (yes, Slarti) the algorithm is flawed, the system, the website, not the reviewers.

Yeah, it's difficult agreeing on where to draw the line between an album that is prog enough to belong here or unrelated enough not to...... but there's difficult and then there's blindingly obvious. Nobody would call KOB a progressive rock album, whether it deserves 5 stars or 1 star. It is not even describable as fusion, which itself can have only passing resemblances to rock. But passing resemblances are justified here, for the sake of not having hundreds of music aficionados arguing about it. Kind of Blue on the other hand, does not need arguing about. Only a deaf person could possibly call it the 56th or whatever best progressive rock album in the world.

All we're actually discussing on this thread is whether we care or not. And given that it's an easy enough thing to ammend, I don't see why people are choosing to leave it in there. If it was removed from the list, would anybody actually complain? Hardly.

Sure enough, albums like Rubber Soul are more complex, and it would require a hell of a lot of arguing to determine whether they belong on this site or not....... so it is easier to leave them in. But Kind of Blue (along with The Magnificent Moodies, Takin' Off, Please Please Me et al...) are so obviously out of place that we can surely bump them off without any arguments?



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:13
Originally posted by Saperlipopette!


I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock.


I agree, as a fact we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog, but I rated The Grand Illusion (STYX) with 5 stars because the album deserves that rating.

But there should be a way to:

  1. In special cases like Miles Davis not to include all their production or
  2. Allow people to rate the album with the rating they believe the album deserves, but don't allow it to reach the top 100.

Believe it's ridiculous to tell people proudly "This are the best Prog albums" and have in the list an album that not only isn't Prog, but that it's IMPOSSIBLE to classify as Prog due to the date of release.

Iván 
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