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Miles Davis - Kind of Blue

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wjohnd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wjohnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
    Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:39
Without getting into the ins and outs of genre... I'm presuming that the reviewers here all like/ love 'prog' and that therefore their opinions might be shared by others interested in discovering great music that people of (potentially) similar taste rate very highly?

It depends what you think the list is for..
100 albums that 'people who like prog rate very highly' or 100 albums that are prog..
given the broad definition of prog I think any attempt to exclude is going to fall foul.

Simple solution would perhaps be to tag definitively non prog albums so they don't show up on the top 100 list?
Some exclusions though will be obvious while others may be controversial.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:53
I gave Kind Of Blue a four because a four star is "Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection".  Doesn't say that it actually has to be prog rock. LOL

Edited by Slartibartfast - August 31 2011 at 13:59
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 12:00
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 12:38
Originally posted by JonnyM79

]  Secondly anybody exploring Jazz/Fusion pretty  much has to listen to it.  It's so influential that trying to understand any form of Jazz without listening to this (and that includes our beloved Fusion genre) is a bit like trying to understand rock or pop without listening to The Beatles.


Louis Armstrong's  Black Chicago from 1929 is far more transcendental  for Jazz  and Fusion than Kind of Blue, but nobody sane will add it here.

Iván
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 13:59
Originally posted by Padraic

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
Could was the operative word there. Wink
Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system.  Really too late to change it.


Edited by Slartibartfast - August 31 2011 at 14:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 15:05
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by Padraic

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
Could was the operative word there. Wink
Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system.  Really too late to change it.

Particularly with your rather massive collection, if that's it in your signature!



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 15:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by Padraic

Originally posted by Slartibartfast

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
Could was the operative word there. Wink
Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system.  Really too late to change it.


I still don't think it would have been that tractable, even if it had existed from the beginning - genre teams having to deal on an album-by-album basis would explode the already considerable workload that exists.

The system as-is has unfortunate consequences such as the current topic that I think will just have to be tolerated.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 17:19
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by Saperlipopette!


I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock.


I agree, as a fact we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog, but I rated The Grand Illusion (STYX) with 5 stars because the album deserves that rating.

But there should be a way to:

  1. In special cases like Miles Davis not to include all their production or
  2. Allow people to rate the album with the rating they believe the album deserves, but don't allow it to reach the top 100.

Believe it's ridiculous to tell people proudly "This are the best Prog albums" and have in the list an album that not only isn't Prog, but that it's IMPOSSIBLE to classify as Prog due to the date of release.

Iván 

So there is NO such thing as a prog related masterpiece in your opinion? (aside from The Grand Illusion) Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:04
Originally posted by J-Man

 

So there is NO such thing as a prog related masterpiece in your opinion? (aside from The Grand Illusion) Confused

Please, read my post.

After reading the guidelines

 Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

I said: that in Prog Archives: "we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog""

This doesn't mean there aren't Prog Related masterpieces, it only means that a non Prog album can't be a Prog masterpiece.

You understand what you want to understand.

Distorting what other members say, won't make your position right.

Iván

BTW: I said it in my "A Night at the Opera" review:

I would love top rate "A Night at the Opera" with 5 stars but there are some small flaws and according to the interpretation of the guidelines, no Prog Related album should be rated with the maximum, 

And was even more clear in one of my all toime favorite albums "Who's Next":

Now with great pain I have to rate the album, and I will do it according to the guidelines. No way I can give 5 stars because "Who's Next" is not a masterpiece of Prog, neither an excellent addition for a PROG collection, to be honest you may have the perfect Prog collection and this masterpiece of Rock doesn't need to be there, so I will have to make an injustice and considered it good but not essential album, because in a Prog context this description is the one that fits better.

In a Classic Rock or general music site I will give the maximum rating without hesitation, no matter if it's 5, 10 or 20, maybe even an extra one, but in a Prog site my hands are tied, if it had even the slightest Prog relation I would go with 4 stars but that's not the case, so I will go with 3 stars, not without feeling a traitor to one of my all time favorite bands


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 31 2011 at 19:23
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:18
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by J-Man

 

So there is NO such thing as a prog related masterpiece in your opinion? (aside from The Grand Illusion) Confused

Please, read my post.

After reading the guidelines

 Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

I said: that in Prog Archives: "we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog""

This doesn't mean there aren't Prog Related masterpieces, it only means that a non Prog album can't be a Prog masterpiece.

You understand what you want to understand.

Distorting what other members say, won't make your position right.

Iván

Ivan, you are DEAD WRONG. Actually read the prog-related guidelines before spewing this crap:

 Essential: a masterpiece of rock music
 Excellent addition to any rock music collection

It's NOT by the same standards that we hold a progressive rock album accountable for!!!

Can you cut the courtroom debate tactics too please?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:24
Originally posted by J-Man

 

Ivan, you are DEAD WRONG. Actually read the prog-related guidelines before spewing this crap:

 Essential: a masterpiece of rock music
 Excellent addition to any rock music collection

It's NOT by the same standards that we hold a progressive rock album accountable for!!!

Can you cut the courtroom debate tactics too please?

That was changed after I wrote my reviews, probably after a thread in which the issue was discussed.

You are the one that are changing what others say, not me.

Iván

PD: To be honest, didn't even knew it had been changed.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 31 2011 at 19:41
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Post Options Post Options   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by J-Man

 

Ivan, you are DEAD WRONG. Actually read the prog-related guidelines before spewing this crap:

 Essential: a masterpiece of rock music
 Excellent addition to any rock music collection

It's NOT by the same standards that we hold a progressive rock album accountable for!!!

Can you cut the courtroom debate tactics too please?

That was changed after I wrote my reviews.

You are the one that are changing what others say, not me.

Iván

*facepalm*

I never claimed that you were changing what others say, and I never did it either! But it doesn't matter anyway... thanks again for reminding me why I never participate in this forum anymore. I'm done.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2011 at 00:49
^ Thats technically irrelevant as KOB is in a full fledged prog sub with the "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music" explanation of five stars. [The prog related issue is another thread altogether (one I think most people agree nothing will be done with).]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lark the Starless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

I gave Kind Of Blue a four because a four star is "Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection".  Doesn't say that it actually has to be prog rock. LOL
 
lolz at this thread

Just rate it 4 stars or less. Technically, Slarti is right. By rating it 5 stars, one is asserting it is prog, when it isn't.

By rating it 4 stars or less (because THIS IS A PROG SITE, YOU KNOW?!?!, in the words of esteemed member , Ivan), it'll be off the top 100 and people will stop b****ing about it.

I honestly don't mind it being there but people get all touchy and well you know...Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2011 at 12:26

It looks like nothing's going to change. If the site admin want to do something about it, which they probably don't, cause it's a hell of a lot of work, then great. Whether they do or not, I don't think anything more can be said or argued about this album.

/thread.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2011 at 12:29
It´s all progressive anyhow isn´t it ? Just not rock - in a couple of years time, maybe we´ll see my generation (29-30) putting an album like Dead Can Dance - Within The Realm of a Dying Sun to the top. It´s a masterpiece in its own right and widely acknowledged like such all over the world. People just tend to call them Dark Wave instead of progressive folkWink
I don´t care, if I´m honest. Music is music, and if you wanna start breaking walls down and throw around chairs about this issue, then I agree that it is a problem that needs to be fixed. Otherwise, I´m perfectly fine with it. I don´t use this site as a competition between the bands, although I´ll vote for stuff in the polls - but that´s just a gas right?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riuku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2012 at 01:28
This release was progressive in terms of the artist's career, no? Long songs, soloing, I believe there's a time signature here, a whole bunch of atmosphere, some experimentation? That's prog, ain't it? I woulnd't hesitate to give it 5 stars and it is one of my favorite albums ever. I agree that maybe it's not a masterpiece of prog rock but then why aren't we complaining about Opeth and Dream Theater and Tool? They're not prog rock, they're prog metal. So let's get them off the list too.

I believe the album may not be a masterpiece of prog ROCK, but I think this site has know acknowledged that prog is not so much rock but rather musicians breaking boundaries, using polyrhythms, lyrical concepts, strange chords, unique sounds, and extended songs to do so. Anything goes and that is absolutely beautiful, and I think Miles Davis knew that when he recorded KoB and of course he knew that with In a Silent Way. That said, it's not a masterpiece of prog ROCk but a masterpiece of progressive music, and if not that then it definitely is an essential for anyone's collection.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2012 at 01:51
It's a full discography policy issue, but if this site was about great progressive jazz albums of 1959, I think I might go with Ornette Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come. 
Some really great jazz album that year, Colemans SoJtC, Mingus Ah Um, Coltrane's Giant Steps, all of which I much prefer to Kind of Blue.  Then there's Brubeck's Time Out.


I love various pre electric Davis albums and like Kind of Blue, but don't "get" the big love it gets.  I'd be happy to see the electric Miles Davis studio albums Get Up With It and Big Fun in the PA top ten.

It's never struck me as that progressive a jazz album for its time when compared to others... 


Edited by Logan - April 08 2012 at 01:53
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Negoba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 08:12
I have refused to review Kind of Blue for exactly this reason.
 
Once again it shows that this site needs to go to system at MMA and JMA where genres go by album and not by artist. I know it would take some tech work, but there are many artists here who have albums in very different categories.
 
Ulver has a prog folk album, several extreme metal albums, electronic, and possible a few in post rock which is ironically where they're categorized.
 
Kind of Blue should be here, as Prog Related, and therefore not eligible for the top 100.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2012 at 08:33
It does not belong in prog related nor in this site. It is a pure jazz release, nothing to do with rock music or anything else.
Later albums does belong in jazz rock category, and that's the reason he is really included here.
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