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Miles Davis - Kind of Blue

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    Posted: August 27 2011 at 05:12
The album, one of the Prog Archives top 100 albums, is on sale as an mp3 download from Amazon. It's the daily $5 album on the android app today, but the price may be good a little longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 09:28

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:26
wrong section.

Yes I don't like that it's in the top 100, but at the same time, I dont care. I'm pretty sure people can or have figured it out.

Nothing wrong with a prog fan possibly checking it out after seeing it in the list. It could be the reason that person starts getting into jazz and fusion, and it'd be all thanks to the PA top 100 albums list
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:30
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.


There was no Prog or Proto Prog or Psychedelia, not even Rock based Pop in 1958, as a fact even Blues based Rock was on diapers.

It's absolutely misleading to have that album in Prog Archives, not to mention the top 100.

No matter how good it is, send it to http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/ this is a Progressive Rock site.

IvŠn


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 27 2011 at 14:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KingCrimson250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:54
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.



Agreed. Miles' music was indisputably essential to the foundation of Jazz-Rock, but while Kind of Blue remains my favourite album by him, it doesn't really have a place on this website.

But then how do you draw that line? I mean Kind of Blue is pretty clear cut. But then, if even though Miles has some prog albums, the rest of his albums get removed for being Not Prog (well I mean they're progressive but they're not rock, which is what this site is devoted to), what implications does that have? Do we axe Invisible Touch? 90125? Some say recent Dream Theater albums aren't "prog," do we get rid of those too?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm totally in favour of cleaning up the site here. But I'm saying that there needs to be a system worked out to accomplish it, and that regardless of what happens there'll be some significant resistance. It may possibly be that despite the current system's flaws, leaving things as they are will keep the most people happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:56
The dividing line is the album Miles In The Sky

anything before has absolutely no rock influence whatsoever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jammun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:41
I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:47
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

   Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  .

Then lets add Chubby Checker, Elvis  and Chuck Berry, they have more influence in Progressive ROCK than "A Kind of Blue", and if we want to go back, then add Mussorgsky, Bach, etc.

There's a limit I believe.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:50

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

You must admit though, that when it is in the TOP 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUMS, things are getting a bit silly. It's less of an issue if the album is hiding in some quiet corner of the site.

I appreciate though, that's it's difficult to come up with a system that further categorises what is already the hardest thing to categorise: art.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jammun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

   Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  .

Then lets add Chubby Checker, Elvis  and Chuck Berry, they have more influence in Progressive ROCK than "A Kind of Blue", and if we want to go back, then add Mussorgsky, Bach, etc.

There's a limit I believe.

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I know, I know.  Robert Johnson anyone?  But at least The Beatles had a few proggers in them in the later years.  As did Miles.  So I'm good with that given the acceptance criteria here is that once a band has a prog album the entire discography is included.  I don't care.  If Chuck Berry had made a version of Pictures At An Exhibition then yes, open the door, let him in.  I would, actually, like to hear a Berry version of Nutrocker.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

   Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  .

Then lets add Chubby Checker, Elvis  and Chuck Berry, they have more influence in Progressive ROCK than "A Kind of Blue", and if we want to go back, then add Mussorgsky, Bach, etc.

There's a limit I believe.

IvŠn


Might as well add James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, and Karlheinz Stockhausen to this site, as that's who was influencing Miles Davis during the making of his late-60s and 70s albums.

Jazz had just as much influence on the development of 70s prog as The 50s and 60s rock idols did. The fact that prog rock and jazz-fusion started essentially at the time is no coincidence. You can't tell me 21st Century Schizoid Man doesn't have any jazz influence. However, there is no reason to start adding jazz artists with no fusion albums, or rock artists that didn't make some proggy albums.

The thing is Miles eventually started developing rock mixed with jazz (and eventually funk), which led to all sorts of development in jazz, rock, prog, etc. and actually made these progressive albums after 1967, whereas AFAIK, Elvis and all of them did not make eventually start making prog/fusion albums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:02
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

You must admit though, that when it is in the TOP 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUMS, things are getting a bit silly. It's less of an issue if the album is hiding in some quiet corner of the site.

I appreciate though, that's it's difficult to come up with a system that further categorises what is already the hardest thing to categorise: art.



Yes. One has to wonder why so many members of this site gave out 5 star ratings for a Cool Jazz album on a Prog Rock site....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sheavy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:04
What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:08

A newbie comes here to politely tell us about an Amazon bargain....... and inadvertently creates a hot prog debate.

He should definitely be promoted to Senior Member!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:11
Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.


But not really. People who gave 5 stars to the album pretty much go against the guidelines for giving out a 5 star rating to an album. It's for albums that the reviewer feels is a masterpiece of Progressive Rock. Whether it was highly influential to the development of the genre is irregardless. It has nothing to do with the fact that he did eventually make some highly progressive jazz-fusion. Now if In A Silent Way or Bitches Brew were in the top 100, it'd be a different story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KingCrimson250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:59
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.


But not really. People who gave 5 stars to the album pretty much go against the guidelines for giving out a 5 star rating to an album. It's for albums that the reviewer feels is a masterpiece of Progressive Rock. Whether it was highly influential to the development of the genre is irregardless. It has nothing to do with the fact that he did eventually make some highly progressive jazz-fusion. Now if In A Silent Way or Bitches Brew were in the top 100, it'd be a different story.


That's why I've avoided rating it. It's a five-star album in the traditional sense, but it doesn't really match PA's criteria of what deserves 5 stars, and having it in the top 100 is a little misleading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 17:29
Wow. And I thought I was the only one who felt KOB in the top 100 is absolutely inane! Glad to see I'm not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 17:45
I don't remember if I rated it here or not, but if I did, I would give it 4 stars, because it IS an excellent addition to a prog collection. On jazzmusicarchives.com, I gave it 5 stars of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A Person Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 18:26
I don't feel bad at all for giving Kind of Blue five stars here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2011 at 21:09
Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.

Simple...How can a non Prog album be considered one of the 100 best PROG albums?

It's misleading

I don't deny he influenced Prog with Bitches Brew, but IMO he never was a prog artist, so it's OK to have him in PA, but in this case only from a determined point in history..

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