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Earendil 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 17 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
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Points: 1584
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 Posted: December 11 2011 at 16:49 |
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Indie music probably sells just as many (if not more) records compared to mp3s than prog does. Personally, I don't buy mp3s but I listen to most of my music ripped from CDs.
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TODDLER
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Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 07:47 |
 tupan wrote:
^
I think the "fan devotion" thing also applicates to the free releases. The prog bands create a solid fanbase with their free offerings too, and many of them download and REALLY buy a physical copy later, or even donate. But, the lesser known bands still needs gig everytime to make some profit.
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The gigs are not very easy to obtain. It's not quite like Ian Anderson hiding under his manager's desk ...so he could get all the good gigs, but it is very much like a private community in this day and age more so than the 70's. The high financial risk that promoters take to promote prog and a few guys like Michael Piper, and ? from a long termed estabished prog label just about sums up the value of the bone that is thrown to young prog bands. As a musician...every penny is taken from your savings due to the lack of promotion. Some wealthy promoter should force prog back into the media represented as a style of music to be taken seriously. More people would be aware of prog and then all the members of this site who complain that their girfriend's misunderstand prog would be content. The industry has the money to at least place prog in history for the mass and not just the minority. What about other styles? Jazz has a global following, the Jazz festivals are sold out, and it's a progressive style of music. Decades before prog obviously that is the first answer as to why. But it is still a progressive style of music that is promoted through some huge labels today. Bands like White Willow and Steve Wilson himself ......you wouldn't believe what these musicians go through and running a tight ship.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 08:20 |
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That's a pretty ambitious suggestion, TODDLER, and would take a real dreamer given the bad rep prog goes. The question is why do people who do listen to progressive music like jazz restrict themselves to just jazz and why not progressive music within rock? From the time I got into Western music, I have never understood the obsession with formats nor understood how one could get through being exclusively focused on one format because I never could. I would get very bored, very quickly of listening to one kind of music all the time. To that extent, I feel a bit disappointed with those audiences who only listen to classical or jazz or even musicians who restrict themselves to specific formats? Why shut doors and why not open your mind instead? If I could go from listening to complacent Indian music to, um, grindcore, I really cannot fathom jazz snobbery at all. What's the big deal? It would hand in hand give all sorts of musicians a bigger audience rather than having to carefully cultivate fragmented niches.
Edited by rogerthat - December 12 2011 at 08:20
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MarkOne
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 18 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 90
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 08:32 |
First off gigs. How many prog gigs from new bands have you been to recently? Only a handful seem to pull huge crowds, and I've seen several bands this year where the numbers are only 50-100 people. Not much cash flows back to the band from that!
Merch desks at the gigs are the best opportunity to sell CDs, and these are often not very busy. I guess for every 100 people at the gig, maybe 5 or perhaps 10 buy the CDs.
CD sales - Unless you are lucky to get signed to a label with a half decent marketing budget (almost none of them) good luck being in any store, getting any airplay, etc.
The fact is, that many of our favourites have to be in more than one band, and often hold down a day-job to pay the mortgage.
The only reason they do it is... THEY LOVE THE MUSIC.
And fortunately for us that is the case
Prog is, even with the recent resurgence still very much a niche market. Albeit a loyal one that still recognises the value of the album format.
Just a final anecdote. I noticed a tweet from John Mitchell of It Bites, Arena and Frost, The new Arena album has only been available from the band directly on their recent europe mini-tour, not being released properly until this week
During that time a 'fan' had bought the album and uploaded it to a torent site for free downoad. The band were of course, far from impressed - I suspect the 'fan' thought they were being really clever.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 09:28 |
rogerthat wrote:
That's a pretty ambitious suggestion, TODDLER, and would take a real dreamer given the bad rep prog goes. The question is why do people who do listen to progressive music like jazz restrict themselves to just jazz and why not progressive music within rock? From the time I got into Western music, I have never understood the obsession with formats nor understood how one could get through being exclusively focused on one format because I never could. I would get very bored, very quickly of listening to one kind of music all the time. To that extent, I feel a bit disappointed with those audiences who only listen to classical or jazz or even musicians who restrict themselves to specific formats? Why shut doors and why not open your mind instead? If I could go from listening to complacent Indian music to, um, grindcore, I really cannot fathom jazz snobbery at all. What's the big deal? It would hand in hand give all sorts of musicians a bigger audience rather than having to carefully cultivate fragmented niches.
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You are correct about the fragmented niches being cultivated. I feel like I know why from my personal experience in the business and on the other hand I'm still not sure.
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 12370
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 09:57 |
Blacksword wrote:
I think it's true that prog fans like to 'collect' albums, complete with packaging, but the MP3 revolution is a very welcome development in my opinion.
I still buy CD's, although I'm not on the bandwagon of having to own every re-edition or re-master of every album by my favourite bands. But, when I buy CD's they get ripped to my Itunes immediately, and I listen from there. I only play the CD's in my car.
Welcome, BTW..  |
Wow!!!! I just found a clone of me. I do exactly what you do, including listening to the CDs in my car. Nice to know I'm not alone.
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 10:10 |
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More than anything this "digital revolution" has effected me in the way of jam bands. So many jams bands now upload every concert they play either for free or for a small fee. That is the best part of modern technology's impact on the music business in my opinion.
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Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance.
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 11:30 |
zumacraig wrote:
my main point was that lots of pop/rock artists have to play live to make money because no one buys music anymore. the 'good' prog bands can still make money selling CDs.
i always wonder how these guys do it. i mean, does neal mores have a day job? |
My guess would be is that most active prog musicians have day jobs of one kind or another. The exceptions would be:
- People in very successful bands who can afford to be professional musicials. Even then I think they'd have to play live regularly to sustain themselves but I actually think this is no bad thing. - People whose "day jobs" essentially consist of being a musician in some other context. Session musician, writer of TV/radio jingles, that sort of thing. - People whose "day jobs" involves serving the prog economy. For instance, Mick Pointer of Arena fame is Clive Nolan's business partner in Verglas and spends a lot of his time handling the paperwork and logistics side of running the label.
Edited by Warthur - December 12 2011 at 11:30
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zumacraig
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1301
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 11:57 |
AlexDOM wrote:
Mp3s are nice and convenient for songs, not albums. And for prog, albums define a band not a song. Therefore I love the cd or vinyl. There's something about the physicality of them. You can touch them, feel them, smell them, and read along with the lyrics. Some artists do a fantastic job with the lyric booklets as well. I am someone that buys a lot of Morse since he's my favorite. He packages stuff very well and all his booklets are awesome, filled with pictures, notes, lyrics that are in cool fonts, and such ha ha. I mean yeah I rip them to my computer and put them on my sony walkman, but I still enjoy the physical cd. And recently I got into vinyls which I've grown to love. This is dorky, but I love taking them out of the giant sleeve in a giant case. Then put the needle on it and watch it spin. It's part of the whole experience. Plus the sound quality is so organic. It's vintage.Sure I like to buy an mp3 here or there of some song or something. I sometimes get mp3 albums (but not often). But I will always support the physical any day. And used cds are always cheap. Or I buy from the artist or record company site giving them 100% support. |
ditto. morse is a great example of the prog niche. he puts stuff out all the time b/c people will buy it. he really doesn't have to play live that much :-)
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zumacraig
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1301
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 12:00 |
TheLastBaron wrote:
What's interesting to see is the prog bands that jump to bigger labels after some time such as Dream Theater, Opeth, Between The Buried and Me just to name a few. Its good in some ways and bad in others, moe exposure for some yet a change in style or lack of innovation in others.
I don't mind mp3's, when I download though I look for high quality lossless, I stil buy cds and copy them on to Ipod in uncompressed format. |
right. since dream theater has gone to a bigger label, their music is way too compressed and clipped. too bad.
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 15:08 |
aprusso wrote:
There are no more decent record shops because there has been the bloody digital revolution.... |
Too right. There used to be a brilliant record shop about 15 miles from me in York - Track records, it was called. It had every type of music and a large vinyl selection, with many 180g special repressings which were awsome in their sound quality. They'd get you anything you wanted.
It closed down about 4 years ago because it couldn't sell enough albums against the competition from a combination of piracy, the big stores and digital downloads. From the York Evening Press Jun 2007:
"IT'S the end of the track.
Track Records, the independent York shop on which three generations of youth have converged for their top-of-the-charts hits, is to close its doors in Goodramgate - defeated by the internet downloading revolution.
"People simply are not passing through the doors," said owner Keith Howe, who in January closed his Doncaster branch with the loss of five jobs after sustaining a year's losses.
Now he will make another six redundant, including himself.
He plans to call in the liquidators within six weeks to formulate the exact extent of debt, but reckons he owes about £100,000.
His house in Boroughbridge Road, put up as collateral on a loan, is already on the market.
Mr Howe said he hoped insolvency would mean the personal guarantees to suppliers would be honoured.
Only last May, ten truckloads of stock and office equipment were transferred to the Goodramgate shop from High Ousegate, where it was based for 15 years.
It is a particular tragedy for 47-year-old Mr Howe, who said: "This business has been my whole life."
He first sold jukebox seconds on York's Newgate Market in his schooldays, before opening his shop, aged 19, in a dry cleaner's premises, in Fossgate, in April 1979.
Track Records then moved to the Coppergate Centre, in 1985, and High Ousegate, in May 1992.
The boom for Track Records and other record shop retailers reached its peak in 1996, but now, said Mr Howe, the industry was on its knees as websites and supermarkets undercut dedicated record retailers.
He said: "Anyone downloading a top album from play.com does not have to pay VAT, because it is based in the Channel Islands.
"Customers can get it, postage paid, for about £8.97, whereas it costs me about £9, that is £7.68 plus VAT, before I can think about making a profit - and that amounts to pennies.
"Most kids are downloading. Our student population in York is expanding, but I see very little evidence of it. There seems to have been a massive exodus of younger people aged from 12 to 24."
Mr Howe claimed, he was not alone, with many of the high street stores suffering, including HMV which had announced 100 redundancies after profit warnings.
The likes of Amazon, play.com and Tesco supermarket were taking their toll, he said. "It's the new reality of the market place," he said."
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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7headedchicken
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 21 2011
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 39
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 16:35 |
AlexDOM wrote:
Mp3s are nice and convenient for songs, not albums. And for prog, albums define a band not a song. Therefore I love the cd or vinyl. There's something about the physicality of them. You can touch them, feel them, smell them, and read along with the lyrics. Some artists do a fantastic job with the lyric booklets as well. I am someone that buys a lot of Morse since he's my favorite. He packages stuff very well and all his booklets are awesome, filled with pictures, notes, lyrics that are in cool fonts, and such ha ha. I mean yeah I rip them to my computer and put them on my sony walkman, but I still enjoy the physical cd. And recently I got into vinyls which I've grown to love. This is dorky, but I love taking them out of the giant sleeve in a giant case. Then put the needle on it and watch it spin. It's part of the whole experience. Plus the sound quality is so organic. It's vintage.
Sure I like to buy an mp3 here or there of some song or something. I sometimes get mp3 albums (but not often). But I will always support the physical any day. And used cds are always cheap. Or I buy from the artist or record company site giving them 100% support. |
Albums do define bands moreso than songs, especially with prog... and I'm right there with you also on the vinyl thing. Hopefully, enough people will retain their appreciation for the album as a physical art form, so that all bands can continue to sell records and CD's.
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fuyuakiworld
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 10 2011
Location: Alderaan
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 16:57 |
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I've a mixed opinion. I only buy Records and Tapes when I'm at a Half Priced Books. And I only get MP3s if thats the only medium it's on, but that's quite rare. I buy all else on CD because of the quality and availability.
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fuyuakiworld
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 10 2011
Location: Alderaan
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: December 12 2011 at 16:59 |
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I prefer CDs above all else. I only buy Records and Tapes if I'm at a Half Priced Books or a record shop and only buy MP3s on the rare occasion that it's not available on anything else.
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
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Points: 1321
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Posted: December 13 2011 at 07:03 |
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I try to only buy CDs, but really at the moment the albums I'm looking for are usually 2-3 times more expensive on Cd than MP3 or simply not available in a physical format. It's a shame, but I'm not rich right now, so downloads are my main source of music at the moment.
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: December 13 2011 at 10:14 |
Warthur wrote:
zumacraig wrote:
my main point was that lots of pop/rock artists have to play live to make money because no one buys music anymore. the 'good' prog bands can still make money selling CDs.
i always wonder how these guys do it. i mean, does neal mores have a day job? |
My guess would be is that most active prog musicians have day jobs of one kind or another. The exceptions would be:
- People in very successful bands who can afford to be professional musicials. Even then I think they'd have to play live regularly to sustain themselves but I actually think this is no bad thing. - People whose "day jobs" essentially consist of being a musician in some other context. Session musician, writer of TV/radio jingles, that sort of thing. - People whose "day jobs" involves serving the prog economy. For instance, Mick Pointer of Arena fame is Clive Nolan's business partner in Verglas and spends a lot of his time handling the paperwork and logistics side of running the label.
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You are correct. There are plenty of ways for musicians to earn money if they try, and they can all involve music. Writing and sending songs to people, doing session work, private tuition, arranging jobs, touring with established acts..... these are the ways you earn money while you wait for your own music to make or break you. Fans in general just aren't aware of day-to-day survival in the music industry, because these are normal, practical jobs that don't need publicising. So it's really not as bleak as being either a totally rich prog icon or a complete nobody with a ton of debt. You work your way up, as in any job, and no..... it isn't easy!
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
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Points: 12608
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Posted: December 13 2011 at 19:11 |
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The thing that bothers me the most about the MP3 becoming more commercial than CD's is that we are taking a step backwards as far as sound quality is concerned. I'm afraid I do listen on my Ipod very often because of it's portability, but I like much better to buy CD's. I'm not yet into SACD or such things, but I want at least CD quality. Now, if the hard drives of Ipods, and even computers could carry without problem the hundreds or thousends of songs on WAV files (as well as internet being fast enough for downloading such files instead of MP3), it wouldn't bother me so much to buy my music online.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 05:34 |
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^^^ That depends on what rate they are ripped at. I would ideally like to listen to my CDs on the speakers at home but since that is not always possible, I rip them at 320 kbps to mp3 and copy it to the ipod. I am quite satisfied with the quality I get and it is discernibly better than, say, the sound quality on youtube links of the same songs.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 11:04 |
thehallway wrote:
Warthur wrote:
zumacraig wrote:
my main point was that lots of pop/rock artists have to play live to make money because no one buys music anymore. the 'good' prog bands can still make money selling CDs.
i always wonder how these guys do it. i mean, does neal mores have a day job? |
My guess would be is that most active prog musicians have day jobs of one kind or another. The exceptions would be:
- People in very successful bands who can afford to be professional musicials. Even then I think they'd have to play live regularly to sustain themselves but I actually think this is no bad thing.
- People whose "day jobs" essentially consist of being a musician in some other context. Session musician, writer of TV/radio jingles, that sort of thing.
- People whose "day jobs" involves serving the prog economy. For instance, Mick Pointer of Arena fame is Clive Nolan's business partner in Verglas and spends a lot of his time handling the paperwork and logistics side of running the label.
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You are correct. There are plenty of ways for musicians to earn money if they try, and they can all involve music. Writing and sending songs to people, doing session work, private tuition, arranging jobs, touring with established acts..... these are the ways you earn money while you wait for your own music to make or break you.
Fans in general just aren't aware of day-to-day survival in the music industry, because these are normal, practical jobs that don't need publicising. So it's really not as bleak as being either a totally rich prog icon or a complete nobody with a ton of debt. You work your way up, as in any job, and no..... it isn't easy! |
I agree with this. I have many musician friends who worked their way up. but it's just that I recall when we were all taken care of and provided for by a corporation. Then we all went downhill and started up again with a new vision that we were to provide for ourselves. I found it a strange realization that all my studio time and touring was financed by big wigs for 10 years and I still hit rock bottom. You can truly get used to that kind of treatment and then one day it is gone. Start your engine for another round.
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mono
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2005
Location: Paris, France
Status: Offline
Points: 652
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 11:20 |
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technology, development, industry.... we all know the game, what we gain, what we lose, as we move forward.
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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