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How prog is viewed by the academy

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desistindo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote desistindo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How prog is viewed by the academy
    Posted: January 05 2012 at 14:02
Im not a musician and dont have classical music formation , but i have joined some music classes as listener in the local University and i was pleased to know that even that the scholastic people and professor of erudite music arent quite fan of progressive rock (or any kind of rock actually), they still reserve a considerably respect for some prog artists, such as Frank Zappa, Henry Cow and others RIO/Avant stuff.

Of course, its not a question of identify "oh this is prog and is respected" when the academia probably dont calls it prog, but i think the main point here is that if you call something "rock" then it wont be see in a academic music course (maybe as folk). But if you just take out the eletric instruments then the academics can be consider seriously.

Its just in my region, or in your countries the situacion is similar? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2012 at 17:10
I saw Sting in concert 25 years ago, and while not exactly the academy he has embraced classical music recently.  The musicianship of that show was very high.  I bought the program which contained interviews by all the band members and one of the questions was their musical listening guilt.  A fair number of them replied, "Yes."  I found that very interesting.  It seems to me that most people who know music appreciate good music no matter what genre or category it is put in.  Academics will generally take rock seriously if it is good music, at least in my experience in the U.S.  So while they may not appreciate Rock in general, particular artists will be appreciated.  Yes is certainly one of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KingCrimson250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by Progosopher

I bought the program which contained interviews by all the band members and one of the questions was their musical listening guilt.  A fair number of them replied, "Yes."  

Was anyone else completely confused because it took ages for it to click that Yes = the band? I hope I'm not alone on this... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ProgressiveAttic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2012 at 18:37
I wouldn't think they are too happy with this:


... but in general I'd say there are two camps: the most conservative one (that support staying away from music that is not strictly classical) and those more open to jazz, rock and other forms of popular music.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2012 at 18:44
This thread also riminds me of a question I ask myself sometimes when I hear concerts of rock bands with an orchestra... "what do the orchestra musicians think of the music they are playing with the rock band?"... and usually they are all so serious that you can't figure whatever it is they are thinking. However, there is the "Yes Symphonic" DVD, and on that one I can tell the members of the orchestra are having pretty much a good time and are enjoying themselves (of course, part of it may be because this one was a particularly young orchestra).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2012 at 19:23
Originally posted by Dellinger

This thread also riminds me of a question I ask myself sometimes when I hear concerts of rock bands with an orchestra... "what do the orchestra musicians think of the music they are playing with the rock band?"... and usually they are all so serious that you can't figure whatever it is they are thinking. However, there is the "Yes Symphonic" DVD, and on that one I can tell the members of the orchestra are having pretty much a good time and are enjoying themselves (of course, part of it may be because this one was a particularly young orchestra).

Even better is Peter Gabriel's New Blood Orchestra which doesn't actually have to play with a rock band.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote irrelevant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 00:03
Originally posted by KingCrimson250

Originally posted by Progosopher

I bought the program which contained interviews by all the band members and one of the questions was their musical listening guilt.  A fair number of them replied, "Yes."  

Was anyone else completely confused because it took ages for it to click that Yes = the band? I hope I'm not alone on this... LOL

Took around 10 seconds for me to figure it out yes. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote shantelleyu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 00:20
Originally posted by KingCrimson250

Originally posted by Progosopher

I bought the program which contained interviews by all the band members and one of the questions was their musical listening guilt.  A fair number of them replied, "Yes."  

Was anyone else completely confused because it took ages for it to click that Yes = the band? I hope I'm not alone on this... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Isa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 01:11
I'm a college student studying classical music. Most of my professors who have heard of prog actually really like it and respect it, assuming they aren't stuck in the "only classical-sounding music is good" mentality. I gave my music theory professor a compilation of the most respected prog and he's been very into it.

Prog is quite respected by those musicians who are open to using their classical insight to analyse it and see the level of ingenuity and creativity of the composition as compared to most "mainstream" rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 01:54
I remember reading about Emerson's experiences with recording his Piano Concerto . He had big problems getting the orchestra to focus on his music and they seemed more interested in studying porno mags.Embarrassed
Carl Palmer did study at the Royal Academy of music under James Blades in the early seventies. That may have helped get him a bit more respect.Later recorded a very nice Percussion Concerto (composed by Joseph Horowitz) that didn't make it onto Works Volume One. Still very good though.
 
BTW Nutrocker was down to Kim Fowley (B Bumble and The Stingers). It was a bit of fun and ELP resurrected it in the early seventies as an encore peice. I doubt it put many noses out of joint although PAAE might be a different case!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Turillazzo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 04:52
All I can say is that once I saw a baroque ensemble playing Peaches en Regalia (they were mainly playing Francesco Zappa's stuff). The director said a few words about it and seemed to be a true prog rock fan.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 06:25
Originally posted by zimiza

Fellows participate in leadership skills workshops, attend meetings with key stakeholders, and conduct site visits to community, government, and corporate entities. Fellows receive regular mentorship, professional and personal skill development and are given opportunities to interact with the media, write reports/press releases, fundraise, testify at policy hearings, and participate in key meetings with top government officials, corporate CEOs, and political leaders.


>funny photos



oh ruddy dangblasted spammaholic hells maw of unbridled beast you know my choirs eyeball.

Does that answer your question?


Edited by harmonium.ro - January 06 2012 at 07:35
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Post Options Post Options   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 07:35
Why quote spam posts? Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 07:47
Originally posted by harmonium.ro

Why quote spam posts? Ermm


ah just tired of em

wont do it again
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Post Options Post Options   Quote OT Räihälä Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 09:18
Originally posted by Turillazzo

All I can say is that once I saw a baroque ensemble playing Peaches en Regalia (they were mainly playing Francesco Zappa's stuff). The director said a few words about it and seemed to be a true prog rock fan.

That must have been Ensemble Ambrosius, a brainchild of composer adn baroque cellist Olli Virtaperko (b. 1973). He's arranged dozens of Zappas works for his ensemble, and there are also a couple of good recordings of them available. If you're interested, it's easy too google them.

I know Olli well (and consider him as a good friend) and he is a big prog fan, but that is not a rarity. Of the fellow composers and professional classical musicians I know - and I know hundreds of them - a few are also into more challenging pop music. Not all are prog freaks, but most admire good progressive music, and can appreciate its best achievements in the same way as they think of classical music.

So, I think prog is held in quite high esteem by the "academy", definitely higher than what the pop fan on the street thinks of classical and art music.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 09:51

Important music academies in the UK (i.e. the Royal College of Music and the Royal Academy of Music) are not particularly interested in rock music and still have some prejudices against jazz (contrary to what they want to appear to be, which is colleges that embrace every style of music and aren't 100 years behind the real world). They would only accept a student to play music such as rock if it went alongside lots and lots of classical music. Ironically, this classical music includes the 20th century avant-garde stuff that a lot of prog bands are closely linked to. But you can't really blame them; they are there to produce the next wave of world class instrumentalists, and the there will always be a demand for people to perform Bach, Mozart and the rest.

In terms of composers, then, they get the short straw, because they are discouraged from writing music that is actually innovative or new. More commonly though, young composers just don't get accepted into the academies in the first place, unless their ethos is effectively one built around pastiches of Beethoven, Liszt, and Stravinsky (the latter being the college's idea of 'modern music'). I'm exaggerating a little, but that's where things stand at the moment with the big guns in the UK.

There are plenty of smaller conservatoires around the place that really do embrace jazz, rock, electronic music, and even pop. Some are as old, established and well funded as the famous pair, e.g. http://www.trinitylaban.ac.uk/




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Post Options Post Options   Quote desistindo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 10:29
Originally posted by thehallway

Important music academies in the UK (i.e. the Royal College of Music and the Royal Academy of Music) are not particularly interested in rock music and still have some prejudices against jazz (contrary to what they want to appear to be, which is colleges that embrace every style of music and aren't 100 years behind the real world). They would only accept a student to play music such as rock if it went alongside lots and lots of classical music. Ironically, this classical music includes the 20th century avant-garde stuff that a lot of prog bands are closely linked to. But you can't really blame them; they are there to produce the next wave of world class instrumentalists, and the there will always be a demand for people to perform Bach, Mozart and the rest.

In terms of composers, then, they get the short straw, because they are discouraged from writing music that is actually innovative or new. More commonly though, young composers just don't get accepted into the academies in the first place, unless their ethos is effectively one built around pastiches of Beethoven, Liszt, and Stravinsky (the latter being the college's idea of 'modern music'). I'm exaggerating a little, but that's where things stand at the moment with the big guns in the UK.

There are plenty of smaller conservatoires around the place that really do embrace jazz, rock, electronic music, and even pop. Some are as old, established and well funded as the famous pair, e.g. http://www.trinitylaban.ac.uk/




Interesting, thehallway. And would you suggest a contemporany  composer from the UK  that maked a "modern" sound in the classical field?
Well the big problem is that peoplo dont even record albums, right? They just give concerts and stuff, i think.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thehallway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 11:19

^ Well, I know of plenty, but only because I'm moving in to the field and have been researching professors and composers in London. But you are correct in saying that their work is largely heard through concerts, which are a) rarely held anywhere other than where the working composer is based, and b) are organised and performed by people in the industry for people in the industry, with minimal contact being made with the mass classical market, let alone the mass music market.

There are innovations being made in the classical field all the time, I'm sure, and some of the figureheads may have a background in one of these very "conservative conservatoires". However, the biggest and most publicised thing about any such academy is always the performers, and they are always in demand to play the classics more than the new stuff. This being the main dilemma for budding composers in London, where I'm moving to this year, and I'm sure in other music scenes as well, it is no real surprise that prog doesn't get a look in.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote desistindo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 11:47
^Yeah, i know what you mean. I actually got interest in contemporary classical music because i noticed that there are many acts in progressive music such as Univers Zero and Art Zoyd that are sometimes more classical than rock in their line. So i though: "hum, im researching prog and came to this, so there must be plenty of other contemporary stuff that werent labaled as prog". But its being very difficult to me to find this kind of music... Im trying to locate some catalog of moder orchestral compositions, but not making progress till now. Any help??
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Post Options Post Options   Quote OT Räihälä Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2012 at 12:08
Originally posted by thehallway

In terms of composers, then, they get the short straw, because they are discouraged from writing music that is actually innovative or new.

I find that quite a misleading claim. Where there are contemporary composers, they/we are encouraged to be innovative and write new things, but the problem is that there aren't enough opportunities to bring these innovations to the audience. In most countries, you need to be a celebrated composer, who's cemented his/her place in the starting line-up of the "sexy" composers to have a chance to have your music performed by established orchestras/ensembles.

Originally posted by thehallway

More commonly though, young composers just don't get accepted into the academies in the first place, unless their ethos is effectively one built around pastiches of Beethoven, Liszt, and Stravinsky (the latter being the college's idea of 'modern music'). I'm exaggerating a little, but that's where things stand at the moment with the big guns in the UK.

I'm amazed if that's how the situation is in UK, because there are many interesting composers coming from Britain, who have based their output on the post-WW2 modernism. However, they aren't well-known outside the inner circles of contemporary art music, and are most often played on contemporary music festivals only. I've written a blog entry about that phenomenon, if you're interested in it, please go here.




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