Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Keith Emerson and music theory
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedKeith Emerson and music theory

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message
The_Jester View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 29 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Keith Emerson and music theory
    Posted: January 20 2012 at 16:42
I don't think Keith Emerson had trouble with musical theory since when I hear stuff that he ''composed'' seems too odd to be wanted. It seems to me Mr. Emerson only does what he thinks ''sounds good''. I think Greg Lake is the the best composer in ELP.
 
What do you think?


Edited by The_Jester - January 30 2012 at 17:00
La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle!

- Napoléon Bonaparte
Back to Top
Horizons View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:15
I think ELP is poopy.
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:27
What do I think about one of the best, most innovative and influential players in rock history?   What do I think of the relative importance of 'music theory' ?   What do I think of Greg Lake's fine songwriting and production skills?   Or what do I think of uninformed questions?



Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:31
I think this will not end well.
 
Mr Emerson was in The Nice, Mr Lake was not. Mr Emerson has over a dozen solo albums, Mr Lake has two. I think it is evident that Mr Emerson was the more proficient composer.
What?
Back to Top
Blacksword View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:49
What do you mean by 'too odd'?

How does that relate to Emersons understanding of music theory?

Arnold Shoenberg composed music that could have been described as 'odd' by many, but I don't think his understanding of 'music theory' was ever in question. Indeed, it was his knowledge of music theory that allowed such experimentation with 'atonality'

What, in Emersons compositions, suggests he doesn't understand music theory??

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Back to Top
presdoug View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8046
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 18:04
If judging him by his music, either with ELP or solo, it is obvious that Mr. Emerson is an intelligent and literate musician.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 18:19
I think you are totally wrong Jester in name and nature.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 18:21
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

I think ELP is poopy.

As you have said before. Give it a rest.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 19:30
A bizarre OP to be sureErmm. Wait up, I forgot Greg Lake's guitar concerto which clearly dwarfs Keith's Piano critter in daring, innovation and labyrinthine conceptual detail.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 19:36
The music theory of Emerson is just a theory so it can't be real anyway, you know like evolution.

Edited by Slartibartfast - January 20 2012 at 19:37
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
The_Jester View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 29 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 20:04
In fact, I heard some of his songs and there's a lot of unwanted dissonances in his parts like if he didn't know in what scale or chord to play in and play anything. in opposite the parts Greg Lake composed are all greatly done with respects of the scale they are in and with logical chords. It is an opinion but I guess that Keith Emerson don't know all the subtilities of musical theory and the link between the theory and composition. I know he made solo albums but they are just as his parts in Tarkus or Toccata: random scales in random chords.
La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle!

- Napoléon Bonaparte
Back to Top
The_Jester View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 29 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 20:09
And I really like atonality in music but only when it is wanted.
La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle!

- Napoléon Bonaparte
Back to Top
presdoug View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8046
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2012 at 21:22
Originally posted by The_Jester The_Jester wrote:

In fact, I heard some of his songs and there's a lot of unwanted dissonances in his parts like if he didn't know in what scale or chord to play in and play anything. in opposite the parts Greg Lake composed are all greatly done with respects of the scale they are in and with logical chords. It is an opinion but I guess that Keith Emerson don't know all the subtilities of musical theory and the link between the theory and composition. I know he made solo albums but they are just as his parts in Tarkus or Toccata: random scales in random chords.
There is so much more to Emerson's playing and composition than "random scales and chords"-especially with ELP albums like Trilogy, every note he plays has an important place in position with the others-nothing is wasted
           sure, he is all over the place sometimes, but it is never filler
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 03:10
It's too bad if you like Lake's songs better than Emerson's music. You miss it.
I can only tell you one thing: be sure nothing is random in what Emerson played.
Back to Top
NickHall View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Chingford
Status: Offline
Points: 144
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 04:23
Greg Lake is a genuine talented songwriter; Keith Emerson is a great musician, not firstly a composer. But I don't believe that part about Keith not knowing his music theory - that's got to be rubbish!
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 25890
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 04:52
I went to the 1995 ELP convention in Birmingham and there was a keyboard guy who demonstrated Keith Emerson's keyboard technique and explained it in layman terms. Its a long time ago so I can't remember exactly what he said but the gist of it was that Emerson did certain things 'unusually' not always following logical chord progressions or 'playing by the book' .
Emerson was an individual who influenced many prog keyboard players.He 'wrote' his own book on keyboard playing and others followed. The idea that he didn't do things 'right' is a bit silly tbh. He just did things his own way. Its called 'progressive rock'.
Back to Top
Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 09:07
Originally posted by The_Jester The_Jester wrote:

I don't think Keith Emerson knows his music theory pretty well since when I hear stuff that he ''composed'' it is too odd to be wanted. It seems Mr. Emerson only does what he thinks ''sounds good''. I think Greg Lake is the real composer in ELP.
 
What do you think?

Disagree...

Fugue.
I rest my case.
Back to Top
The_Jester View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 29 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 10:49
Originally posted by NickHall NickHall wrote:

Greg Lake is a genuine talented songwriter; Keith Emerson is a great musician, not firstly a composer. But I don't believe that part about Keith not knowing his music theory - that's got to be rubbish!
In fact, that's exactly my point. I don't mean he doesn't know anything about musical theory but I'm sure he does not master it perfectly. Maybe he knows about it and doesn't know how to use it properly all the time. He's a musician and Greg Lake is a songwriter.
La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle!

- Napoléon Bonaparte
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 11:43

It sounds to me like you are confusing music theory with a more simplistic version of that which is used in song writing. Composition using the "rules" of music theory, or using a simplified form of them that is proven to work every time, or disregarding them entirely does not determine how good a composition will be - using the simplified rules of 12-bar blues have been used to create some of the most sublime music ever written, and some of the blandest.

Music theory is a means to describe what has been used, not a means of restricting what can be used. For example chord progression can be based upon the circle of 5ths but that is not a golden rule that must never be broken, chord progressions that do not use it are perfectly fine. Similarly discordance is not dissonance is not atonal; any key change will result in a temporary discord that can be resolved into tonality if the composer chooses too using a pivotal note, but again, it's not a golden rule that must never be broken; using a tritone will result in dissonance, in composition this is something to be exploited to create expression rather than avoid to create harmony, The Beatles used tritones for that purpose and Emerson probably uses them because they sound scary and (karn)evil; atonality simply means without a central key, it is perfectly possible to write atonal music that is harmonic and melodic, what atonality is not is random notes over (in?) random chords, again using atonality is perfectly within the "rules" of music theory.
 
(I believe) Rick Wakeman said "you have to know the rules to break them", yet the two artists he admired the most for composition and song writing (David Bowie and The Beatles) knew nothing of music theory - they "broke the rules" in practically every song they wrote - not by knowing the rules, but by understanding what sounded right to them. And in that I think this is Emerson's approach, (I'm not arguing whether he knows music theory or not - there are reports that he studied classical piano and took examinations when he was eight - then so did a lot of people who were learning to play the piano back in the day), that he transcribed Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk into common time suggests to me he simply played it as he thought it should sound rather than the slightly arrhythmic 9/8 time it was written in.


Edited by Dean - January 21 2012 at 11:45
What?
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 12:09
Keith Emerson and music is thin at one end, much much thicker in the middle, and thin again at the far end.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.176 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.