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Topic ClosedIs obscure, difficult prog deeper or more ...

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Alitare View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2012 at 19:16
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Alitare Alitare wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

It is both deeper and more...

Deal with it.


Whose heart and feelings are more important in deciding which 'depth' is 'deepest'?

Where is the measurement? If you 'just know', who knows? How can you determine whether someone 'knows' or not? IS there a measurement for this?

I, more than most folks, understand that each person has feelings, interests, emotional responses, opinions, and desires.




Not sure you really meant to be hoisted by yer own petard but....presumably someone immune to false modesty might state they are more receptive than the majority when it comes to an appreciation of depth? Ermm

Oh, I wasn't declaring myself any whimsical hero of unbridled empathy, or anything. I wasn't attempting to pretend superiority in any manner. The point of my saying that was a point in the direction of helping others determine the origin of the response - curious instead of accusatory, a matter of inquiry over critique. Expressing interest as opposed to discontent. 

To clarify - I wasn't implying that 'I, more than most folks, know people better'. That's ridiculous. I am a detestablysocially-disheveled chap. I do, however, try my hardest to always realize that the feelings people experience, while obviously subjective, are still real. I don't discard a man's thoughts simply because he's something as trivial as being factually incorrect. I also don't discard a man's feelings simply because I disagree with him or despise him. They're there. I was trying, vainly I suppose, to express how, despite the seemingly sardonic nature of my line of questioning, I don't intend to...I dunno. 

I guess it's akin to me saying this: "I'm so completely comfortable in my heterosexuality and tolerance/acceptance of homosexuality that I could suck a cock and still be perfectly straight'. Doesn't make me any better than anybody else, but I could do it, especially for lots of money.

"I'm so completely comfortable with tolerating other feelings and opinions that I can love, pity, and empathize (on most days) with even those I hate" - or some such nonsense, is what I was trying to say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2012 at 20:16
20 minutes of Wagner is, wow, incredible!Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2012 at 21:02
Originally posted by Isa Isa wrote:

Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

 not a quantifiable thing..... so there are no right and wrong answers, and if we changed our definitions, we could prove without much difficulty that Bieber is more 'deep' than Beethoven.


I'd be more inclined to agree with you're relativistic hypothesis of musical depth were more historically consistent. The underlying problem is that this view does not explain why certain music "stands the test of time" and a lot of it doesn't. The greatest composers throughout all of human history (up until the relativistic movement in the twentieth century) certainly believed there was some sort of inherent depth in musical composition that goes beyond human convention, as with all arts. If you had walked up to Beethoven and Mozart and told them that there was no such thing as inherent depth in music, they would have written you off as a wack-job, to put is quite frankly. Not that I'm saying anyone is one, particularly in this day and age of relativistic societal consensus.  But a lot of professional classical musicians still take their view.



Well, classical music has over the years become a sort of music for the musicians and is generally highly respected among, well, so called serious music lovers (I couldn't think of a better word).  But you have to ask whether Beethoven really stands the time as far as the general public goes.  I would bet a good majority would say it is boring and they can't relate to it.  The favourite example of rock music that stands the test of time is usually Beatles and again I could easily show you people who say it is boring, wimpy, etc etc.  In fact, merely because they cannot relate to it, they will go to the extent of saying Beatles are overrated and people just feel compelled to go with the consensus.

Whatever, that's a different discussion but I am not sure that music that stands the test of time achieves this 'timelessness' only on account of its depth.  It is also critical approval, popularity and awareness.  Some artists achieve a certain measure of ubiquity and their name lives on several years after their work is over.  Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner etc achieved this in classical and Beatles, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan among others in rock.  But I am not sure it is only about depth. 

Several top 10 hits from the 70s are forgotten now and yet you have this boring (in my opinion!) Hotel California song that every rock lover is still obliged to say something nice about. See!  Now this is an example where I can't relate to the popularity of a so called classic at any level and probably each one of us could find some or the other such examples.  Up to the 20th century, the classical establishment governed which works became 'important' and now it's the media and general rock demographic. From father to son, classics are handed down and some of them endure, for no rhyme or reason.


Edited by rogerthat - February 02 2012 at 21:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2012 at 23:59
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

20 minutes of Wagner is, wow, incredible!Thumbs Up
 
Yeah, but 20 hours is like SleepyWink  Actually, I like him in about 60 minute segments, no voices.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 00:07
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Sometimes this observation is offending. Take for example Stevie Wonder's piece "Contusion". It's good as National Health or Soft Machine. It's the sort of piece with that underground obscure sound and yet it is not considered that he wrote something prog because his image is represented through the commercial media. It's like "Belong to the club" or "get out". Prog fans find it revolting to discuss him at a prog fest. This is a lot like a math problem for me. You have the correct answer and they are telling you otherwise. Either you know how to write prog or you don't. The majority of prog people don't seem to take into account that many "Pop artists" could write complex prog because it derives from the talent within and not some prog club. Regarding the big 5 or 6 in prog, I enjoy the obscure bands more and then I just go back and forth between them.
 
It is all a matter of pigeon-holing artists, and proggers as a group do it as much as anybody else.  For myself, I enjoy a lot of Stevie Wonder's music and admire him a great deal as a musician.  When you hear one of his records, you are hearing almost just him - vocals, keys, yes, but also guitars, bass, drum, harmonica, horns, etc.  The man is brilliant.  Check out Talking Book.
 
There is a difference between appreciating music and enjoying it.  I was just listening to a collection by Otis Redding.  Great music which I appreciate, so much talent there, but it doesn't speak to me.  Too many of us forget this distinction, and we end up making fools of ourselves when we decry an artist or band as lacking talent when the opposite is the case.  All we are really saying is we don't like it.  I used to do this all the time.  It is a dogmatic approach we are prone to when we first discover something new that really excites and/or moves us.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 06:06
To answer the topic's question, no. I'm a firm subjectivist when it comes to aesthetics, to me the aesthetic perception of art cannot be objective in any sense. There cannot be an inherent "depthness" in a work of art, since the perception of "depthness" comes from the recipient (the audience).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 09:51
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Sometimes this observation is offending. Take for example Stevie Wonder's piece "Contusion". It's good as National Health or Soft Machine. It's the sort of piece with that underground obscure sound and yet it is not considered that he wrote something prog because his image is represented through the commercial media. It's like "Belong to the club" or "get out". Prog fans find it revolting to discuss him at a prog fest. This is a lot like a math problem for me. You have the correct answer and they are telling you otherwise. Either you know how to write prog or you don't. The majority of prog people don't seem to take into account that many "Pop artists" could write complex prog because it derives from the talent within and not some prog club. Regarding the big 5 or 6 in prog, I enjoy the obscure bands more and then I just go back and forth between them.


That's because for those people who are not his fans, Wonder begins and ends with I Just Called to Say I Love You. On a good day, you might meet somebody who's also heard Superstition and that's it.  There's no point telling them about Contusion because such people will simply refuse to believe you.  LOL  But Contusion is still a very obvious example; I think an attentive listener should pay attention to the superb guitar arrangements on Visions. 
People refusing to believe me must mean they  think a musician has to  play in a prog band in order to write it and perform it. In the musician's case that does not pan out. If you are a really talented musician you will be able to play or even write almost anything.  Someone react with... "who cares?" "He doesn't play prog, so what is your point?" There are a lot of musicians in the world who could write prog and decide not to. They couldn't care less who they are working for as long as the money is good. Musicians all over America who are playing in wedding bands , but used to play in original/cover prog bands in the mid 70's. I walk up to the stage on break and ask the keyboardist to play Tarkus and he just ripp's right through it. If you think about it in this way and realize it's a life style or that the geek who is performing in some "Top 40" cover band on a ferry boat could play the pieces from Brand X, Yes, Genesis, etc then it all doesn't seem to matter anymore.

Edited by TODDLER - February 03 2012 at 09:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 10:07
again with the labels and adjectives that are completely subjective.......

"Is beautiful music pleasant?"....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 10:31

From starting this whole 'depth' discussion, I should say where I stand. I agree (as usual, I'm finding!) with Rogerthat.

Some sentences:

Like I said somewhere else on this forum yesterday....... music's endurance has as much to do with non-musical factors and qualities as it does with this now-exhausted concept of 'depth'. I would bet money on the fact that something we might consider the greatest piece of music ever written has actually never ever been heard, because it's composer did not have the means or desire to promote and distribute his masterpiece. Imagine that!

Adele is better than Thick As A Brick, if you're asking me. Why? I can't say. They are so different in so many ways. Both are wonderful. We all find one slightly more wonderful. Maybe this extra wonderfulness is purely random. It may as well be, since we have basically concluded in this thread that, as humans, we're absolutely sh*t when it comes to trying to describe why we like things.

In music arguments, I often give up and yell: I JUST LIKE IT, OKAY???!!!!!!!! I DON'T f**kING KNOW WHY!

Does this make this forum obsolete?




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 14:01

What do we mean by "depht"?

Some may say it is related to how elaborated the music is. That music in which the artist(s) have put a lot of attention to detail, with a carefully worked-out harmonical layout, deliberated complex structure, rich instrumentation, inclusion of multiple keys, twists or whatever, is deeper than a "simple" 3-chord folk song played on acoustic guitar and sung on top.
 
Somehow you can think of an analogy in cinema. There are movies in which you can surely feel that the director and/or script guy went through a lot of work to build the story, with unobvious things being integrated, a very clever plot which requires some thinking to fully get, some surprises that reveal themselves only after thiking about them, careful control of the camera moves and light, or whatever. Many will say that such a film is "deeper" than a Steve Martin comedy even if that does not necessarily mean that they will consider it a "better" film.
 
Others may say that "depht" is more related to primitive feeling and emotion, and may consider the very simple 3-chord folk song deeper than Close to the Edge because that particular chord combination and the simple melody laid on it touches their emotions in some undescribable way.
 
Personally I tend to think of "depht" in the former sense. The latter I tend to describe it as "pure inspiration" or something like that.
 
 
 
  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 21:28
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

In music arguments, I often give up and yell: I JUST LIKE IT, OKAY???!!!!!!!! I DON'T f**kING KNOW WHY!

Does this make this forum obsolete?




You are right, describing music is a challenge and it's difficult both to describe it adequately and also to separate such distinction from superlatives used to describe your own appreciation.  There is a difference between saying something evokes King Crimson and something is as good as KC.  I think the former is very important to me in such forums or the reviews posted on the website because if it's even reasonably faithful, it could tell me if it's stuff that might interest me or not. 

Another person may have also looked at the same piece of music in a different light and have his own perspective.  That COULD be something interesting for you too.  You may or may not have to agree with him, but chances are he has noticed something you didn't and it's for you to decide whether you also attach importance to that.  If it's a piece of music I like and somebody has pointed out something negative, I try to ignore it because it's not worth the effort to un-like music you already like.  But if there's a song or an album or a band I don't like or just don't like all that much and somebody has pointed out an aspect or some aspects I had never noticed, then, who knows, that might change my view about the whole thing and I may have learnt something more in the process.

What I am about to say may not find many takers but I feel it's more important to consider than to agree or disagree and more important to possess the right to have your own opinion rather than the fact you have one.  An opinion is..nothing...it can always be changed and it often does change with the passing of time.  More important is really if you form your opinion of your own or under peer pressure. When somebody snaps, "Hey, that's my opinion", I usually take it as a signal that he doesn't want to discuss the subject.


Edited by rogerthat - February 03 2012 at 21:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 21:33
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

What do we mean by "depht"?

Some may say it is related to how elaborated the music is. That music in which the artist(s) have put a lot of attention to detail, with a carefully worked-out harmonical layout, deliberated complex structure, rich instrumentation, inclusion of multiple keys, twists or whatever, is deeper than a "simple" 3-chord folk song played on acoustic guitar and sung on top.
 
Somehow you can think of an analogy in cinema. There are movies in which you can surely feel that the director and/or script guy went through a lot of work to build the story, with unobvious things being integrated, a very clever plot which requires some thinking to fully get, some surprises that reveal themselves only after thiking about them, careful control of the camera moves and light, or whatever. Many will say that such a film is "deeper" than a Steve Martin comedy even if that does not necessarily mean that they will consider it a "better" film.
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
After reading this thread I was going to chime in with my thoughts about depth but this hits it perfectly. I couldn't say it better myself. ClapClap
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2012 at 23:37
I think bands who try really hard to write songs to be complex in a rhythmic way are terrible at writing songs. If your trying to just make a song that changes time sigs all the time its awful. To me progressive music has always been about the passion and emotion in a song rather than how hard it is. I'll take dark side of the moon over any prog album because its perfect in its simplicity. Its not hard to play at all, but that does not make it easy to write. Its a pleasant listen from start to end without any filler material. 

So when you ask whats more deep, well the songs need emotion to be deep. Dance of eternity is extremely complicated but I usually skip it when I listen to SFAM. The instrumental sections in the other songs are entertaining enough. Its great to show off your talent thats part of prog, but I think prog gets a bad rep for lacking soul which I agree it does these days.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 09:37
"Difficult" suggests to me a piece of music too complex to be absorbed in one listen - initially it sounds confusing because part way through I have forgotten the beginning and I don't know what is coming next. However, after a few plays I have learnt it well enough to recognise the components that are repeated with variations at different points and am able to relate the current section to those that come earlier or later. The reward is to be able to see how all the diffrent parts fit together to make one whole, and this is similar to the feeling produced when trying to understand any difficult topic when suddenly it all becomes clear. In fact, in posting this I now see the meaning of the last card in the 11 card Tarot spread I drew when deciding whether to join the forum. So l would say that listening to "difficult prog" is very wortwhile - and could help one move a step further along the path to enlightenment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 04:08
Originally posted by Alitare Alitare wrote:

Are the people, the ones that think that Miley Cyrus is deep, broken humans? Should we dispose of them? 
 

Yes. But this conversation is about music not about flaws in humanism.


Edited by Redug - February 05 2012 at 04:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 05:39
^ In any conversation, about music or otherwise, the proposition of large-scale genocide and breaching of human rights is likely to attract a few comments!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 05:40

Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

"Difficult" suggests to me a piece of music too complex to be absorbed in one listen - initially it sounds confusing because part way through I have forgotten the beginning and I don't know what is coming next. However, after a few plays I have learnt it well enough to recognise the components that are repeated with variations at different points and am able to relate the current section to those that come earlier or later. The reward is to be able to see how all the diffrent parts fit together to make one whole, and this is similar to the feeling produced when trying to understand any difficult topic when suddenly it all becomes clear. In fact, in posting this I now see the meaning of the last card in the 11 card Tarot spread I drew when deciding whether to join the forum. So l would say that listening to "difficult prog" is very wortwhile - and could help one move a step further along the path to enlightenment.

A good argument, but you lost me at Tarot......



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 07:08
Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

"Difficult" suggests to me a piece of music too complex to be absorbed in one listen - initially it sounds confusing because part way through I have forgotten the beginning and I don't know what is coming next. However, after a few plays I have learnt it well enough to recognise the components that are repeated with variations at different points and am able to relate the current section to those that come earlier or later. The reward is to be able to see how all the diffrent parts fit together to make one whole, and this is similar to the feeling produced when trying to understand any difficult topic when suddenly it all becomes clear. In fact, in posting this I now see the meaning of the last card in the 11 card Tarot spread I drew when deciding whether to join the forum. So l would say that listening to "difficult prog" is very wortwhile - and could help one move a step further along the path to enlightenment.


I would consider the Ninth Symphony more intricate than many prog pieces and yet it is more easily digested.  So I have to say that I don't really agree with your theory above.   Some of the greatest works of music are such that can be enjoyed "on the surface" because the parts are great and also analyzed in depth because they are, in totality, intricate.  A parallel in architecture to my mind is Taj Mahal.  The only reason I persist with a given piece of music even if it doesn't draw me in the first time is because so many factors like my previous experiences with music and the expectations that I may have based on that, my mood at the time of listening or simply my receptiveness that day to absorb something out of the norm may stop me enjoying a piece of music.  Otherwise, if a piece of music does not grab within a few listens, it is really not an ideal situation in my opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 07:24
Well, sometimes my brain is just too tired to aprecciate a complex or difficult song so I just listen to more accesible stuff :D  I'm not always in the mood for Starless or Facelift eheh
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 08:03
I never seriously answered the question, go figure.  I don't give a damn how obscure and difficult the prog is or how well know or simple.  I like a range of stuff that spans this spectrum.  I don't know music theory enough to know what damned time signature a piece is in.  All that matters is if it passes the hear test.
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