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John Mayhew on Trespass

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: John Mayhew on Trespass
    Posted: February 19 2012 at 15:26
^That is why he didn't sing and drum "at the same time"
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2012 at 17:13
Tony Banks being a huge King Crimson fan and then meeting Steve Hackett who was also a Crimhead gave Banks this opportunity to work with someone new in the band who valued the same things . Hackett seemed to have a more definite attack on electric guitar than Phillips....although that was the style of guitar playing Banks was searching for. Like maybe having someone on board that could play like Fripp, but direct their own voice. It was evident during this time that Banks personally did not care for John Mayhew's style and wanted to find a drummer whose attack was harder and could drive the band's sound a bit more. For example the sound of Phil Collins snare drum on "Dancing In the Moonlit Knight" where during an up-tempo section of the song Collins drives the band more and with Hackett attacking those strings ....certainly Banks had the right people.
 
People have often said in the past that Anthony Phillips sounds like Genesis but it's more like the writings of Tony Banks. All the great signature lines came out of Banks. Everything you hear practically that makes you love Genesis ...he wrote it. Selling England, the Lamb, Foxtrot. He had an idea for  an original style and was admired by those around him like Keith Emerson and others, so he was very particular in choosing who to hire. He probably wasn't easy to work with. 


Edited by TODDLER - February 19 2012 at 19:25
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Post Options Post Options   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2012 at 09:47
I'm a huge fan of the album. Either my second or third fav genesis album, and I never found anything bad about the drumming. I think it's superb. I was actually suprised that it wasn't Collins.

Edited by smartpatrol - April 22 2012 at 02:13
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2012 at 10:20
John Mayhew's drumming on Trespass is perfectly fine. But unlike Collins, he doesn't add his own flavor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2012 at 02:12
The kindest thing that can be said about John Mayhew is that he was adequate. His playing didn't ruin the album and, at the very least, the band were able to get the job done with him. But he was not a "good" drummer, and that has nothing to do with comparing him to Phil Collins. It's more to do with the drummer's role in the band and what he brings to the table. John Mayhew was fired because he wasn't good enough. John Anthony (the band's producer) said that he wasn't giving the band time, he was following theirs (which is a pretty major flaw). As a drummer myself, I can hear exactly what JA is talking about. There is a sort of trepidation to John Mayhew's playing, it's just doesn't sound real confident or solid. But, I agree that it doesn't ruin the album.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2012 at 04:28
I would compare John Mayhew's drumming on Trespass to Mick Pointer's on Script Wink

It does the job perfectly well but his days were numbered.

I guess you all know that sadly, John is no longer with us but he did come along to a Genesis convention in London a few years ago.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2012 at 04:30
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...
Errrr.....YES! Wink

To me, this comment is like saying "maybe I should try breathing air or drinking water one of these days......."

LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2012 at 05:37
Originally posted by bucka001

The kindest thing that can be said about John Mayhew is that he was adequate. His playing didn't ruin the album and, at the very least, the band were able to get the job done with him. But he was not a "good" drummer, and that has nothing to do with comparing him to Phil Collins. It's more to do with the drummer's role in the band and what he brings to the table. John Mayhew was fired because he wasn't good enough. John Anthony (the band's producer) said that he wasn't giving the band time, he was following theirs (which is a pretty major flaw). As a drummer myself, I can hear exactly what JA is talking about. There is a sort of trepidation to John Mayhew's playing, it's just doesn't sound real confident or solid. But, I agree that it doesn't ruin the album.



Well put.  As a listener, I think to say his work didn't really exude any great flavour would sum it up.  Collins succeeding him spotlighted the difference, but so would have Bruford or Weathers or Barlow, to name only a few, had they stepped into his shoes instead of Collins.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flyingsod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2012 at 15:58
I like Mayhew's drumming a lot. Im not a fan of drums really and for a vast majority of bands I regard them as fancy metronomes (Phil incl) and  they never really enter my stream of  musical consciousness. Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though, and I like any drummer that can do that. So Thumbs up For John Mayhew.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2012 at 10:32
Originally posted by Flyingsod

Im not a fan of drums really and for a vast majority of bands I regard them as fancy metronomes (Phil incl) and  they never really enter my stream of  musical consciousness. Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though, and I like any drummer that can do that.
 
Fair enough, and no one's opinion is "wrong." Still... you're saying that you regard Phil as a "fancy metronome" whose playing doesn't "enter your stream of musical consciousness," but John Mayhew's drumming does catch your attention? Again, fair enough and I have heard some Yes fans say that they prefer Peter Banks to Steve Howe, but I've just never heard anyone big up John Mayhew while referring to PC as a fancy metronome whose playing doesn't register with them.
 
Originally posted by Flyingsod

Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though
 
It's probably because he wasn't  rythmically locked in with them! Wink (just having a bit of fun!)


Edited by bucka001 - April 23 2012 at 10:33
jc
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Post Options Post Options   Quote spknoevl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2012 at 11:29
It's difficult to compare them since we only really know Mayhew from the rather subdued Trespass while we' ve managed to hear Phil in numerous Genesis recordings as well as his solo work and Brand X.  Brand X, especially, gave him a nice showcase for his drumming skills and showed a side of his playing that was really only hinted at in Genesis.  Trick of the Tail is the first Genesis album that really showcased Phil's drumming, to hear ears.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flyingsod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2012 at 19:19
Originally posted by bucka001

 
It's probably because he wasn't  rythmically locked in with them! Wink (just having a bit of fun!)


 HAh! that may be the key :) And to be fair to Phil I'll restate I'm no big fan of drums and people who know drums probably know better.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2012 at 19:29
I honestly never found the problem in Mayhew's performance.

He was perfect for Trespass, very few drummers could had made it, because it has very complex sections, I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass.

I don't believe Trespass is the best Genesis album, but I consider it better than SEbtP, The Lamb and every Collins era album.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 23 2012 at 19:31
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ghost_of_morphy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 01:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

It's hard being the shadow of Phil Collins.  His drumming didn't ruin the album for me.
 
Ditto.  He was competent if not exceptional.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 02:05
Trespass is one of my favourite Genesis albums, so the drumming doesn't ruin it for me, but I do find the drumming quite tedious and it has seemed to me in places that the drumming is not quite on beat with the music.  The timing seems a bit off in, say, Visions of angels to my non-drummer ear as if he is following the song rather than leading it rhythmically.  A little off-beat can be interesting, but not in this case.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 06:49
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass
 
Trust me, he would have...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote spknoevl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 07:40
Originally posted by bucka001

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass
 
Trust me, he would have...
 
You don't really know that; the band was still young and not all that tight themselves.  I'm not sure Phil could have added all that much more to Trespass.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 09:55
I first heard The Knife on Genesis Live, so when I heard it on Trespass I was a bit disappointed that the drumming on it was so much less dynamic and powerful (I could say similar things about the guitar playing, though Hackett did retain some of the guitar solo in it's album form for the live shows).  I've also heard Phil play Stagnation from that album......and it seemed to me he was overplaying a bit.  Of course, in that case I was more used to the Trespass version.

Overall, I think the album gets a lot of its charm from the somewhat tentative performances of all the band members (compared to later albums, at any rate).  Phil may well have been able to do a better job, but I think the whole character of the album would have changed and it wouldn't be so unique in their discography.  So for that, I'm glad Mayhew was the drummer, even if I much prefer Collins drumming in general.  Definitely doesn't ruin the album for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by spknoevl

Originally posted by bucka001

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass
 
Trust me, he would have...
 
You don't really know that; the band was still young and not all that tight themselves.  I'm not sure Phil could have added all that much more to Trespass.
 
John Anthony (Genesis/VdGG producer) discussing the problems with Trespass: "John Mayhew couldn't really drum; he wasn't giving them time, he was following theirs... [Trespass] was like a beautiful work, without the necessary foundation, and this was very much felt."
 
I'll go with his (and my own ears') assessment. Remember, the band fired JM and there was a reason for that.
 
Armando Gallo (famed Genesis biographer/friend) discussing Trespass: "...a frustrating album to listen to because you can feel the direction that the band were moving towards, and the difficulty that they were having getting there. The rhythm section of Mike on bass and John Mayhew's drums is never confident enough to give the album a solid foudation."
 
And then once Phil joins for Nursery Cryme... Armando Gallo: "Phil's powerful drumming makes them sound like a real band."
 
Again, I don't think JM's playing sinks the album and he is at least adequate. Certainly his playing allowed the band to complete what turned out to be a good, solid album. But it would have been better (the aggressive sections would have had more fire and power, the complicated bits would have sounded smoother and more confident, etc) with Phil (or Guy Evans, or Alan White, or Franz DiCiocco, or Mike Giles, etc) on drums.
 
 
jc
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 10:24
On the other hand, if I think about the band Yes...
 
Time & A Word is my fave Yes album. I know that almost everyone favors Steve Howe over Peter Banks, and I've read where Howe has commented that he wished he'd played on this album. Undoubtedly, SH is the better guitarist, at least technically and I also think he's a better writer.
 
BUT... I wouldn't change a thing on T&AW. I would hate to think of that album with Howe's million-note runs because the guitar (and everything else) on that album is already perfect. So, I totally get this comment:
 
 
Originally posted by infandous

I think the album gets a lot of its charm from the somewhat tentative performances of all the band members (compared to later albums, at any rate).  Phil may well have been able to do a better job, but I think the whole character of the album would have changed and it wouldn't be so unique in their discography.  So for that, I'm glad Mayhew was the drummer, even if I much prefer Collins drumming in general.  Definitely doesn't ruin the album for me.
 
Still, I'm not sure that my T&AW / Trespass situation is an apt analogy because I think Peter Banks was a better guitarist than John Mayhew was a drummer (Banks, while not as good as Howe, was at least a good, really talented guitarist whereas I just don't think the same about John Mayhew's drumming)
jc
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