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John Mayhew on Trespass

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 11:46
Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

 
John Anthony (Genesis/VdGG producer) discussing the problems with Trespass: "John Mayhew couldn't really drum; he wasn't giving them time, he was following theirs... [Trespass] was like a beautiful work, without the necessary foundation, and this was very much felt."

I completely disagree with him, his work at Nursery Cryme is terrible, the drums sound as tin cans, this is not Phil's responsability, but the producer's who did a sub-par job.

I feel that Trespass is well balanced and everybody was perfect for the album.

BTW: The time had to be given by the full rhythm section, and if you blame Mayhew, you must blame Mike also. but Mike really developed, we don't know how much John could had evolved in time.
 
I honestly don't trust john Anthony too much, remember that Genesis  started to work with David Hitchcock who improved the sound clearly in Foxtrot
 
Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

Armando Gallo (famed Genesis biographer/friend) discussing Trespass: "...a frustrating album to listen to because you can feel the direction that the band were moving towards, and the difficulty that they were having getting there. The rhythm section of Mike on bass and John Mayhew's drums is never confident enough to give the album a solid foudation."
 
Again, Gallo blames Mayhew and Rutherford, but Mike improved a lot, I believe Genesis was a bit unfair with John, to the point that he had some "negotiations"  Genesis for his royalties on Trespass at least until 2006  http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006-Page2.htm  which I'm not sure if he ever got


Iván 

 
 
[/QUOTE]

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 02 2012 at 20:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bucka001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2012 at 13:53
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I completely disagree with him,
 
He was there, so if there was a problem with the drumming (and if the band had a problem with JM) he would know. And even if he never said it, I think one can hear it. JA's no fool, I talked to him at length a couple of times while doing the VdGG book, and he's a very sharp music guy with a great track record (besides working with Genesis and VdGG, he produced Queen, Roxy Music, Al Stewart, and had a major production hit with "How Long" by Ace)
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

his work at Nursery Cryme is terrible
 
I thought it was a very good production job, and he did a fantastic job with Pawn Hearts the same year.

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: The time had to be given by the full rhythm section, and if you blame Mayhew, you must blame Mike also.
 
You can have Stanley Clarke on bass, and if the drummer is not very good (following time instead of giving it, etc) then it's not going to sound very good. Phil Collins once said that a great drummer can make a mediocre band sound great, and a mediocre drummer can make a great band sound mediocre. In my own experience, I've seen that to be the case (both scenarios). So, there's nothing Mike could have done.
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I honestly don't trust john Anthony too much, remember that Genesis  started to work with David Hitchcock who improved the sound clearly in Foxtrot
 
Not by choice. JA got the boot by Strat for spending too much time on the Happy The Man single (so the story goes) and Gallo wished that JA had done Foxtrot. I, too, don't think that Foxtrot is any big improvement over NC (although the 9/8 section of Supper's Ready is sonically awesome).
 
I also think Genesis was fair with JM. He just wasn't very good. They weren't horrible people, so to do something as unpleasant as firing someone in a band, there had to have been a reason. The reason was they knew they could do a lot better.
 
 


jc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 17:26
This is an intriguing thread. I've pondered this myself at times. Trespass is among my top ten favorite albums, so his performance didn't do anything to disrupt my own appreciation of the album. I used to be a good amateur guitar player, definitely not a drummer. I do understand what another said about following with the rhythm rather than providing rhythm. However, Anthony Phillips and others were influenced by classical music, and classical music may involve percussion, but it doesn't normally have a back beat. The other instruments do normally provide the time (or stretch it freely). In my opinion his tentative playing suited the elegant ornate feel of the album. Trespass marked a transition from an acoustic heavy sound to an electric heavy sound, and Mayhew was there for that transition at an appropriate time (one might say the same about Anthony Phillips who shined more on 12-string than electric, but whose departure had nothing to do with limitations of playing ability - he was quite good indeed). I propose that if Phil Collins had put his authoritative drumming on Trespass, it might have been good in a different way, but it would not have had quite that same feel.

There's a very precious interview of John Mayhew on World of Genesis:
http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006.htm

I like how Mr. Mayhew himself put it in the interview:
"What happened was that I locked horns with myself, really, and I thought, “Oh goodness, I can do anything to spoil or inhibit their musical flow” or whatever and deferred to the music itself and cut everything down to a very spare way of playing in consequence… I realize now."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 21:28
Trespass is close to Genesis best album. Nice compositions. Not a weak track. The band replaced 2 members for the next album and the composition quality dropped. There's 3 or 4 weakish songs on Nursery imo. The songs on Trespass are cool and the drumming is fine.

Edited by dr prog - July 02 2012 at 21:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The_Jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 22:35
< ="" ="text/" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> He's not the tightest drummer I heard but his job is fine on the album. It's not excellent but it's good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2012 at 00:56
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

I would compare John Mayhew's drumming on Trespass to Mick Pointer's on Script Wink
A very apt analogy - very well stated...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flyingsod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2012 at 15:34
For non Marillion fans... what does ^that mean?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2012 at 06:40
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


I don't believe Trespass is the best Genesis album, but I consider it better than SEbtP, The Lamb and every Collins era album.

Iván
Whoa.......Genesis from 1970 - 1977...then they became a pop band...
Tresspass is very feminine except for "The Knife"...soft 12 strings...excellent album especially Stagnation, I just Love he guitar motif when Gabriel sighs..."and must I wait forever......"
But - Then came in Collins and Nursery Cryme was an overall marked improvement on Trespass......Only weak track is the "For Absent Friends...",  Salmacis.... is in the top 50 prog tracks of all time (well of the ones I've heard anyway)...then the Foxtrot - "Suppers Ready"......and you're into the top 20 tracks of all time.....
AND THEN THE MASTERPIECE......Selling England by the pound...the best symphonic prog album of the seventies by a freaking country mile......has three of the top 10 prog tracks of all time and the BEST prog guitar solo to boot.....
The lamb had a lot to live up to after that and sadly (though still excellent) droppped below the standards set in the previous 3 recordings...similarly TOTT and then a big improvement in WAW - even with collins singing this captures earlier glories with the excellent - Blood on the Rooftops.....
It's all about opinions bu I reckon 99.99% of Genesis freaks would consider that SeBTP to be their pinnacle.....
Who disagrees???
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2012 at 06:43
Oh and I agree with the Mick Pointer POV - bloody awful drummer , and I saw him live half a dozen times....
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2012 at 09:13
Trespass is nearly as good as Selling England by the Pound but better than Foxtrot. John Mayhew would have been awful on Selling England by the Pound, but he was not awful on Tresspass. Different things were called for. If the band were wishing for a more guiding and driving drum beat on Tresspass too, then fine (It's not clear to me Anthony Phillips was), but the album would have had a different less classical feel. For me Trespass is a gem that I would not like to hear altered, and Mayhew ought not to be maligned for his contribution, I don't think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnK67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2013 at 16:11
Tony Banks said in an interview that John Mayhew was a good drummer once he learned the parts but the parts had to be written for him by other members of the band because he couldn't come up with drum parts on his own. So usually Tony or Anthony Phillips had to teach him what to play which ended up being extremely time consuming. When they auditioned for a new drummer after Trespass, they were looking for someone who instinctively knew what should be played without someone showing him, which they obviously got with Phil Collins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2013 at 23:43
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Oh and I agree with the Mick Pointer POV - bloody awful drummer , and I saw him live half a dozen times....
Off topic here, but I agree - naturally, I have 'Script', and I recently acquired the latest Arena album 'The Seventh Degree Of Separation' and I don't hear much, if any, development in his drumming......
John Mayhew on 'Trespass' reminds me of Guy Evans on 'The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghost_of_morphy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 13:56
After reading this thread I went to the effort of listening to the first side of Trespass just for the drumming.

I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.

This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.

And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.

I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.

To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sturoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 17:13
I gotta lay it out on the table here:
 After reading all the 'what if's' , the 'I think's ', the 'so and so said' this and thats.

I see it in this way
The band, as is any new band when writing, composing and recording, was always in flux and as time goes on would eventually find their way.
I dislike very much how posters say that Mayhew would have been horrible on later Lps.
How can you know this ? If your a musician you would know as you're developing the  craft that you never play the same way as a year ago, 2 years ago, etc.
Unless your stuck in a useless rut -you are always seeking to expand.
How do we know that Chris Stewart would not have advanced further if he had stayed ???
Mayhew could have grown into a remarkable drummer as did Collins over time.  Sadly this was not the case.
To say that Collins would have been great on Trespass or earlier is also a very baseless unless you heard him play during that time. He may have been honing his playing as well since he had really only been in one 'real' band prior to Genesis

I've been in bands where the current drummer was very good and as the band evolved the drummer did not and hence we let him go  for a more cohesive like drummer. there was no soap opera or mystery over it We agreed together and while it is disappointing to have one to leave a band. It is part of the process. That said after a time the 'new' drummer left and the previous one came back ! Improved and definitely a more mature drummer in the musical sense.
One can write a novel on band dynamics !

Genesis was in development mode for years especially at this time period/ lp discussed. And unless one can quote directly from the band members themselves or the studio engineers as one poster bucka001 has done, then it is only speculative opinion.
But please don't make those sound like absolute facts.
Read this :
http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006.htm

At the time, Mayhew while quite humble and respective of the other members longer association, was good for the band and recordings.


Edited by sturoc - November 10 2013 at 17:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iamathousandapples Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 18:00
Outside of Visions of Angels and The Knife, there wasn't many songs where it actually grabbed me. It's not really bad, it actually kinda suits the album I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 23:37
I view the drumming on Trespass the same way I view John Rutsey's drumming on the first RUSH album. Sure the guys who came after them were technically better but they still got the job done and they both did a fine job. I know some think of "Trespass" as the first Genesis album even though it really wasn't but you can think of it that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2013 at 00:31
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

After reading this thread I went to the effort of listening to the first side of Trespass just for the drumming.
I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.
This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.
And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.
I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.
To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.

Mayhew did not drum in a conventional sense. But the band was instructing him on his parts, so they were culpable if it was so bad, but it wasn't. Mayhew did not provide time, lots of fills here and there. He's more like a percussionist, following along with the orchestration and adding color to it, not driving it, but this fits the ornate style of the album. It fits the classical feel. Mayhew recognized the writing prowess of the group and kept a light footprint. This was a good thing.

Although he had a heavier footprint, the same could be said about Rutherford's base. He inserted lots of fills and did little to provide time. It seems to me that Banks was usually slightly ahead of the beat and that he was driving the pace of some of the material. Collins is a better drummer. I think he would have done well on Tresspass, but it would have been a very different album, and therefore I am happy that we have what we have. In hearing The Knife live with Collins on drums, I do not think he improved upon anything Mayhew did on it. Nursery Cryme is not so ornate overall. Then again, when it is, as with Harlequin, the drums have a lighter footprint.

Edited by HackettFan - November 11 2013 at 00:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2013 at 01:13
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

After reading this thread I went to the effort of listening to the first side of Trespass just for the drumming.
I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.
This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.
And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.
I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.
To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.

Mayhew did not drum in a conventional sense. But the band was instructing him on his parts, so they were culpable if it was so bad, but it wasn't. Mayhew did not provide time, lots of fills here and there. He's more like a percussionist, following along with the orchestration and adding color to it, not driving it, but this fits the ornate style of the album. It fits the classical feel. Mayhew recognized the writing prowess of the group and kept a light footprint. This was a good thing.

Although he had a heavier footprint, the same could be said about Rutherford's base. He inserted lots of fills and did little to provide time. It seems to me that Banks was usually slightly ahead of the beat and that he was driving the pace of some of the material. Collins is a better drummer. I think he would have done well on Tresspass, but it would have been a very different album, and therefore I am happy that we have what we have. In hearing The Knife live with Collins on drums, I do not think he improved upon anything Mayhew did on it. Nursery Cryme is not so ornate overall. Then again, when it is, as with Harlequin, the drums have a lighter footprint.

I tend to go further and say Collins closed to ruined it for me. It doesn't need his 'overly busy' style all over it. I expect people already know this but The Knife came from an earlier track recorded by The Nice called 'Rondo'. There is a very similar situation regarding Carl Palmer playing that track with ELP and Brian Davison playing in on the original album. Davison was a limited (although very good) drummer but Rondo was ideally suited to it his style. Powerfull driving but unfussy. Palmer wanted to do more with it but it just didn't need it. (although at least Palmer didn't feel the need to blow a whistle during itAngry)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2013 at 10:20
Originally posted by JohnK67 JohnK67 wrote:

Tony Banks said in an interview that John Mayhew was a good drummer once he learned the parts but the parts had to be written for him by other members of the band because he couldn't come up with drum parts on his own. So usually Tony or Anthony Phillips had to teach him what to play which ended up being extremely time consuming. When they auditioned for a new drummer after Trespass, they were looking for someone who instinctively knew what should be played without someone showing him, which they obviously got with Phil Collins.
 
Obviously Genesis or (Tony Banks), wanted a drummer with more power, gymnastics, and independence. They didn't need Tony Williams or Billy Cobham in the band, but they required just enough of that gymnastic kind of playing adding something special that was meant to exist in their music. It's where a Classical and Jazz mentality of drumming are fused together to back the foundation in sound of a full scale Progressive Rock piece. I can imagine how frustrated Tony Banks became with teaching someone their drum parts. Especially when you're trying to make a simple leap to a level where a band can easily progress. It's not the kind of situation a professional musician/writer will tolerate for long. That's not being pompous, it's just expecting everyone to pull their own weight. Which is only fair because in some cases ..spending time teaching or guiding others is a situation that takes advantage of you and it will squander your talent.


Edited by TODDLER - November 11 2013 at 10:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sturoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2013 at 10:54
Well its a difficult situation that can border on being read as pompous, egotistical etc. The 'core' members congealed their bond and were trying to bring another in. That' a very hard thing to do and unless your lucky you'll go thru many auditions or sessions to find that person. I've been involved in just this situ and its extremely hard to deal with,cause its your project. If you've only played in cover bands you won't get what I mean. Writing compositions goes very deep an extension of yourself being put out there.
The Mayhew period is such a short amount of time to try and get comfortable with people especially when in a recording studio under the microscope and clock.

I see where Banks comes off as pompous etc in interviews and carefully wording his responses but with a slip here and there too. My feeling about all that is 99% of us do not know him personally or in a group dynamic so how can we honestly try to describe how he really is ?
Within any band, there are 'leaders' & 'followers'. And as we've seen with Phillips (for whatever the real reasons were) left, Gabriel and Hackett they choose not to follow and left.
The eras in question are completed,  times have moved on and that is history.


Edited by sturoc - November 11 2013 at 11:05
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