John Mayhew on Trespass

ghost_of_morphy wrote: Xonty wrote: . Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut, This is heresy of the rankest sort.

I have no idea why Mike Giles is so underappreciated. His timing on Scizhoid Man was simply fantastic. I feel like starting a thread just to address this.  

Xonty wrote: . Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut,

As a drummer of 30 years I think the criticism of JM's drumming is over the top.  "Can't play"?  "Bad"?  Comments like that should be reserved for someone like the Shaggs's drummer when they first started out (Supreme Mistress of the oblique polyrhythm ).  Pro musicians are always strong players (at least before ProTools and autotune) and prog players especially so. JM was a damn good drummer, if not in the same league of Phil and Bill (very few are).

John's performance was expressive and helped create atmosphere.  Who cares about a bit of looseness and a bit of tastelessness?  What's wrong with a bit of dirt? Must everything be prissy perfect all the time?  I say this as an old tragic of the most notorious perfectionists around - Crimmo and Uncle Frank. It's not their perfection that I enjoy but their creativity, atmosphere, flair and intelligence.

Trespass has loads of character, arguably more atmospheric than other Genesis releases, and John M was part of that, warts and all. It wasn't all JM's warts either.  Peter G was pitchy at times but that didn't diminish his dynamic performance on the album to my ear either, not to mention fluid timing from the whole band. 

Stagnation is outstanding with that beautiful middle section. Looking for Someone was another great track with fun drums. I don't understand all this talk about him being circumspect either.  He laid out when he was supposed to and when he came in he sounded like he was really hammering those tubs. At times JM reminded me of Moonie (compliment) - crazy call-responses all over the place. Wasn't so keen on his overplaying in Visions of Angels - hardly circumspect - but apparently he didn't arrange the drum parts.  Of course, if we were going to shoot proggers for overreaching, it would be sorry state of affairs

I love Phil's drumming - always did - and I appreciate that Genesis wanted a jazzier, more sophisticated drummer who needed less supervision.  However, I agree with those who doubted that Phil would have improved the album. It's a false assumption. Better is not always better, if you get my drift.

The key difference is Guy Evans continued to play on and has not stopped, John Mayhew did not.
So unless you take a snapshot comparison right at the exact time both were active or anyone else for that matter, Comparisons will mean nothing.

I think this thread is taking on 'dead horse' status now.

Tom Ozric wrote: John Anthony's rather 'raw' production doesn't help things, especially concerning the drums....... Perhaps Mayhew was playing material beyond his capabilities, but I don't think his work dragged the album down. Would've been nice had Collins joined at this point, but he didn't. Put it this way, Mayhew was a vast improvement on Jonathan Silver.

John Anthony's rather 'raw' production doesn't help things, especially concerning the drums.......
Perhaps Mayhew was playing material beyond his capabilities, but I don't think his work dragged the album down. Would've been nice had Collins joined at this point, but he didn't. Put it this way, Mayhew was a vast improvement on Jonathan Silver.

Trespass is such a great album, I wouldn't change a thing on it.
Whenever I hear 'Stagnation', I can't help but think how spot-on the band was as a unit - every member just 'clicked'. Perfection.
Banks is outstanding on every level .

Well said!

I don't think genesis were quite ready for a drummer such as Collins when they wrote trespass.

The drums work great and the album benefits from them not being too ambitious. Although I haven't listened to it in a while, I'm gonna dig it out!

BBT are a good example though. I'm sort of on the fence about them. Pleasant but borderline banal at times although there are some lovely hooks. English Electric Part One is 'accessible prog'. If radio played prog anymore then this would do well.

The early seventies was a unique time for music in general not just symphonic prog. Its more difficult for bands to get their stuff taken seriously anymore and as soon as that word 'pretentious' became a byword for anything from Jethro Tull to ELP and became ingrained in the music critic dictionary forever then Houston we have a problem. It actually amazes me that band such as BBT even exist. They do what they do for love not for money.. I appreciate that fact but how much the music impresses me is another matter.

Edited by richardh - November 19 2013 at 01:36