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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 21:00
I'm not sure becoming an ally of the guy who wants to take the US into another war is just a baby step or a minor compromise really. I could understand if he accepted living with some sort of Fed, if he accepted that drug legalization has to wait (but decriminalizing it use should remain a priority), I could see as a minor compromise some sort of acceptance of government control measures for the economy, but this would not be a reasonable compromise at all, this is not "one step back, two steps forward", this would be "let's go back to square one and pretend we moved forward".
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 20:33
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

By the way, if Ron Paul does it, it basically will kill a lot of people's interest in change forever. Not because Ron Paul is the only option there might ever be, but because he was so consistent and true and suddenly even he had to become or ally himself with everything that he supposedly fought against. 


That really is a shame though because like it or not, people need to accept some compromise. If you wanna stick 100% to your beliefs and any slight sign of "faltering" is opposed then the best any one can hope for is sitting around on line talking about how the government sucks and not getting anything doneLOL

Baby steps. From just 4 years ago I can't believe the explosion in interest I've noticed. We all need to keep up the good fight!
I'd say Paul taking the VP (while I hope he does not) isn't so bad. He may alienate the die hards but it may bring more on board. Also hate to be suck a cynical f**k, but if people were going along with it and not 100% sure what its all about even well....
Better than supporting no one/one of the mainstreamers

Needless to say, I hope he doesn't do it and I also hope the movement continues to grow by education. People actually becoming informed and not just following like sheep.  I can be living proof, it was as simple as reading. Once you open your mind to the idea of change and just read what is said, it really becomes impossible to argue against!


Edited by JJLehto - March 18 2012 at 20:36
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 20:26
By the way, if Ron Paul does it, it basically will kill a lot of people's interest in change forever. Not because Ron Paul is the only option there might ever be, but because he was so consistent and true and suddenly even he had to become or ally himself with everything that he supposedly fought against. 
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 20:24
I'm not sure what part of "I've talked against politicians and war mongerers all my life - I will run as VP of a politician war mongerer" is not contradictory enough not to warrant total disappointment. I'm not sure this would be death by purity Jim. 
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 18:03
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

If he denounced Romeny's platform while accepting the VP that would be one thing, but running with him in silence shows a man playing politics to get into a position of power. No thank you.
 
 
I also said previously that it isn't happening and part of the reason is the VP debate.  He obviously isn't going to support Romney's positions unless Romney changes them (not something he's known for doing LOL).
 
I do struggle with the libertarian position that as soon as there is a public sign of impurity it's abandon ship.  It dooms libertarian politicians from the start.  I would be disappointed if he took the VP slot, as well, but I'd completely understand it from this point of view:  In the 4 years since his first (republican) run he's seen a completely neocon party take all these tiny baby steps toward his positions and get flooded with his supporters.  Having his name on the ticket would let all hell lose within the party (another reason it won't happen) and would be used to legitimize supporters who have been "infiltrating" the party at the local/state level.  If Romney were to win I could see Rand taking over for his father at VP while Ron is appointed as "chairman of the Federal Reserve" (at least this is the deal I'd be negotiating if Romney came knocking).  If Romney lost the fight for the party continues with Paulites weilding a far stronger position going forward.
Politics is a game I've played and really should be getting back to.  If I were a people person I could have this party turned around in a decades time Tongue


I'm not a libertarian. I respect Ron because of his absolutist stance on his principles and refusal to play the political games I do not recognize. As was said,

Originally posted by William Lloyd Garrison William Lloyd Garrison wrote:


I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or to speak, or write, with moderation. No! no! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; — but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD.


Anyway, I think the plan for Ron to become chairman of the Fed is fantasy. It's more likely for the damn thing to just be abolished. It's highly unlikely that the Senate approves him to even be on the 7 member board since he spent his entire political career trying to abolish the institution. Then for the Senate to approve the appointment of a new board member who carries that political philosophy to the chairmanship? I don't see that happening.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 17:41
Yeah it tastes kind of bad but some realism is needed to actually get anything done in politics (I know that sounds like the cliche sell out line)but if Paul was the VP to Romney it wouldn't be too bad as long as he does what you guys said, uses it as a vehicle to get his views out even more. Especially with Rand there to take over the mantle.


Unrelated note: Always thinking...I'm guessing there is no way you guys could ever be on board with a progressive income tax system? Even if it was a greatly reduced one, along with a slash (or even removal) of several other taxes?

Also how do you feel about the negative income tax proposed by Friedman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax
It's at least an intriguing idea to me,  seems pretty politically moderate and looks to accomplish as best as possible a way to have money for poor people without the mess, provides some incentive and could be used to remove the minimum wage.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 17:39
Thanks Robert for letting me know, I will review that album one day.  Thumbs Up

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By the way, Jim, Lethean is added to the database if you want to post your review there.  Smile

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7209
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 16:45
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

If he denounced Romeny's platform while accepting the VP that would be one thing, but running with him in silence shows a man playing politics to get into a position of power. No thank you.
 
 

 
I do struggle with the libertarian position that as soon as there is a public sign of impurity it's abandon ship.  It dooms libertarian politicians from the start.  I would be disappointed if he took the VP slot, as well, but I'd completely understand it from this point of view:  In the 4 years since his first (republican) run he's seen a completely neocon party take all these tiny baby steps toward his positions and get flooded with his supporters.  Having his name on the ticket would let all hell lose within the party (another reason it won't happen) and would be used to legitimize supporters who have been "infiltrating" the party at the local/state level. 




To the bolded part......  ClapClapClap

Libertarians suffer from the same thing I saw in the Green party.....death by purity.  This country is never going to be perfect from the purist Libertarian standpoint, nor the Green/far progressive standpoint.  With that knowledge you have two choices.  Pick up your toys and go home, or make a positive difference in the position you can get.  Paul being the VP would be a freaking HUGE deal for the principles he stands for.  Kudos to you for realizing that, great post. 

It would advance the cause enough that next time around, another high quality Libertarian candidate could go further.

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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 16:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

If he denounced Romeny's platform while accepting the VP that would be one thing, but running with him in silence shows a man playing politics to get into a position of power. No thank you.
 
 
I also said previously that it isn't happening and part of the reason is the VP debate.  He obviously isn't going to support Romney's positions unless Romney changes them (not something he's known for doing LOL).
 
I do struggle with the libertarian position that as soon as there is a public sign of impurity it's abandon ship.  It dooms libertarian politicians from the start.  I would be disappointed if he took the VP slot, as well, but I'd completely understand it from this point of view:  In the 4 years since his first (republican) run he's seen a completely neocon party take all these tiny baby steps toward his positions and get flooded with his supporters.  Having his name on the ticket would let all hell lose within the party (another reason it won't happen) and would be used to legitimize supporters who have been "infiltrating" the party at the local/state level.  If Romney were to win I could see Rand taking over for his father at VP while Ron is appointed as "chairman of the Federal Reserve" (at least this is the deal I'd be negotiating if Romney came knocking).  If Romney lost the fight for the party continues with Paulites weilding a far stronger position going forward.
Politics is a game I've played and really should be getting back to.  If I were a people person I could have this party turned around in a decades time Tongue


Time always wins.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 14:57
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:


 
JJ: Metal is a sh*tstain on the prog landscape.


Well, it is also a genre of its own last time I checkedTongue and hey to each their own. I appreciate the increased variation, you're ok living in the 70's it's all good. Wink

Oh lord, I fear you may actually go to armed rebellion Pat.

There's still Rand, and hopefully more people stepping up to keep the fight going.


Edited by JJLehto - March 18 2012 at 14:59
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 14:42
If he denounced Romeny's platform while accepting the VP that would be one thing, but running with him in silence shows a man playing politics to get into a position of power. No thank you.

Brian: If Ron Paul turns, then I think that signifies the path of peaceful resistance has been exhausted.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 14:40
Equality: Bit of an overreaction but I'd be disappointed as well.  I wouldn't vote for the ticket but I can understand trying to use that office to further embed your people and positions in the party.  As I said earlier, as well, Romney has no positions of his own and I could fully see him coming towards Paul after the election is over (were they to win).
 
JJ: Metal is a sh*tstain on the prog landscape.


Edited by manofmystery - March 18 2012 at 14:41


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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 14:34
If Paul, after his 30 years of bashing both parties, airing the same grievances and voting NO on like everything sold out I guess the only real option is to truly lose all faith and become 100% apatheticLOL

I guess him running as a VP to "get the message out" to an even wider audience isn't so bad a thing, but still seems like bullsh*t. Also if he agreed to VP with Santorum I may actually bash my face in :(
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2012 at 14:26
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

ABC "news" just reported that Paul is now "angling for the VP slot on the ticket."  If true, and just go with it as a hypothetical, what would you guys do with a Romney/Paul or Santorum/Paul ticket? 

Does that make it palatable enough or would you still vote for Johnson?




I would most likely just sit on my couch election day and denounce Ron Paul as a fraud.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2012 at 23:42
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

A good rule of thumb is that if the band/artist began their career after the mid-70s (unless they are named Anglagard, Beardfish, or Titan) then I probably don't enjoy them.  Figures that now is the one time I need my old, last.FM based, sig.  http://www.last.fm/user/manofmystery  I also dislike Genesis Tongue.



Damn, shoulda figured you'd be one of the "old = good new = suck" people.
You don't seem to have much taste for metal? Which would explain why nothing from the 90s on appeals to youWink

God damn I can't figure out why I don't ever remember you. All I can think of is you never talked about music, while I generally only did, or you did when I was on hiatus from this place.




Edited by JJLehto - March 17 2012 at 23:46
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2012 at 23:17
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

A good rule of thumb is that if the band/artist began their career after the mid-70s (unless they are named Anglagard, Beardfish, or Titan) then I probably don't enjoy them.  Figures that now is the one time I need my old, last.FM based, sig.  http://www.last.fm/user/manofmystery  I also dislike Genesis Tongue.

Basically, politics is your only redeeming feature

Edited by The T - March 17 2012 at 23:17
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2012 at 22:21

A good rule of thumb is that if the band/artist began their career after the mid-70s (unless they are named Anglagard, Beardfish, or Titan) then I probably don't enjoy them.  Figures that now is the one time I need my old, last.FM based, sig.  http://www.last.fm/user/manofmystery  I also dislike Genesis Tongue.


Time always wins.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2012 at 21:46
I'm not even sure what you like man, I know Johnny Cash and that's itLOL
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2012 at 20:49
If by "DT still has like.. 3 good albums" you actually meant 0 then we can agree on that, as well.

Edited by manofmystery - March 17 2012 at 20:51


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