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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: March 08 2012 at 11:10
Originally posted by The T

One of the few democrats opposed to war, Dennis Kucinich, has lost his seat in recent primaries. It's as if in the US being against war is the worst possible idea for any candidate.


She gets to face Joe the not really a plumber.  Dennis was the only guy in congress who had actually had experience being homeless.

Edited by Slartibartfast - March 08 2012 at 11:11
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 11:15
Originally posted by The T

One of the few democrats opposed to war, Dennis Kucinich, has lost his seat in recent primaries. It's as if in the US being against war is the worst possible idea for any candidate.


Which is strange because polling would indicate otherwise. It's not the people don't like the candidates, it's that the parties themselves do not like the anti-war candidates. They make sure these people don't get nominations.

Remember that Republican state lawmakers redistricted the state prior to the primary which deliberately led to Kucinich's opposition having a more favorable districting.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - March 08 2012 at 11:17
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 11:48
Yeah I figured it was a redistricted rail job. Apparently that's another perk of getting the lead of a state, redraw it to favor yourself!
In the case of Texas, no need to even wait till decades end

Kucinich was the man. I'll miss that rat faced crazy.


Edited by JJLehto - March 08 2012 at 11:49
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote horsewithteeth11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 16:53
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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 00:05
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 06:35
Read something about how some of the Paul campaign are let down and confused about the massive throngs of support they have that don't seem to be quite translating to votes.
The youth, us 25 and unders (a large bastion of Paul support) are famous for leaving people on the altar.

We all remember Paul's massive online support in 08 that ended up with bupkis.

Some will say it's media smearings, GOP oppression, and other reasons...all of which are valid and have proven to be true, but think the youth of America yet again are running out on wedding day?
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 07:39
I saw some reasonably suspicious evidence of vote manipulation. I wouldn't rule that out. Probably some of what you mentioned and just the illusion that strong internet support can create in people that use the internet. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 07:52
No doubt about that, and seems like it is a bit of all 3 indeed.

Is a shame, more I thought about more I thought there was a very strong possibility he could've beaten Obama, surely Romney won't and the others even less chance. Ah well. Guess we'll see if something crazy happens with the primaries.

I still would prefer Bama to Romney and co. so that's fine by me but barring quite a change I'll still be writing in Paul in November.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 08:10
Paul's challenge will always be (or always was I guess is more accurate) overcoming the Republican primary. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 08:14
That's for sure. 
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The T View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:28
Originally posted by The T

I agree with this short assessment. Just as today, there was no need for the US to jump into the war in Europe
 
Yes we were such idiots.  We should have allowed Hitler to get on with whatever he wanted to do.  Someone remind me, what was it he was up to? 
 
 
Help me I'm falling!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:42
That is one time I will disagree, and ya know I am pretty non interventionist but WWII is like the exception.

And sounds a little "hindsight is 20/20" in that article/what Hoover said.

Issues:
The war cost Britain its empire. First, good! That's being spoken of as a bad thing? Second, maybe Churchill knew. It was Hitler who said the British Empire would not survive the war. Being the smart man he was, I'll say he had a hunch. Regardless, he didn't care. He opposed Hitler well before anyone and wanted to stop him. OMG maybe...maybe he was even willing to take the hit of the aged British Empire to do it

Handed half of Europe to Soviet Communism. Uh, we didn't fight on the Eastern Front. That was all the USSR. Before we opened the Western Front, 90% of German troops were on the East. Sooo if the US doesn't get involved, I dont see how the outcome is different. If anything MORE of Europe would be overrun by communism in my mind.

More erosion of Freedom, OK this is true.

There was no real threat to the US, again true. He even says "it was known at the time" soo he's admitting hindsight is 20/20? Just a weak argument.
So the US and England don't get involved..what would've happen? After an even more amazingly brutal hellish war either the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany overrun Europe? Maybe they just wipe each other out? I'll admit, I'm just not that brutal.
IDK, a lot of these articles are quite good but I gotta fight this one. Just a little too much for my blood and I don't find the arguments very strong.




Edited by JJLehto - March 10 2012 at 08:46
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:52
And if the article is solely making an analysis in hindsight, I can do the same:

The holocaust continued on even as Germany was being eaten away at all sides, so with only one front (since there'd be no one else involved) it would've been even more horrifying. There'd have been more time to carry it on. I may be non interventionist but if you are willing to say "yeah I would accept that result" just for not being involved...then wow.

I'm not so sure "those b*****ds would've wiped each other out" is too solid either.
One of them would've won. Maybe it would've been the Soviet Union and they'd have greater influence (hell in hindsight we can say anything, maybe Stalin would've gone 1812 on their asses and push all the way to France) OR more likely without any distractions...Germany would've won.

That's just what we would've loved.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 09:31
^The only good reason for the US to intervene was stopping the Holocaust. But the US didn't enter WWII to stop the Holocaust, and they didn't really do it. The most horrendous part of the Holocaust actually took place once the US was in the war, once the Nazis started to realize the war was lost (around, after Stalingrad). If the US had wanted to stop the Holocaust they could have started by bombing railway lines that lead to Auschwitz, Treblinka and the rest, or by bombing te camps themselves (though this would have cause jewish casualties anyway). The UsSR - Nazi war would have eventually sided with the soviets, for sheer number and industrial strength. The whole thing was wrong from the beginning. Hitler invaded the west because he didn't want a two-front war (which proved fatal). Sometimes I think that, misguided or with political interests or whatever, Chamberlain's appeasement wasn't so horrendous. The Hitler-Stalin showdown was bound to come.

Anyway, WWII is the only US war of the 20th century that kind of resembles a just war. Kind of.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 09:56
Ahhhhh I was making the point the article was just looking back and saying "this and that" so I did the same.
You see it's not really that good a strategy.

Sorry for the explosion but I find it crazy Especially since, as you say, it could've easily ended with the Soviets winning sooo yeah, THAT is what we would've liked??
Sorry but the idea of not being involved with WW2 I find utter lunacy and how intensely that article talks of it is outright scary to me.

The whole thing was wrong.
Necessary, even justified, does not make war "right". It's a terrible thing, and I wish people had that mindset. It's always wrong, even if it's needed, and thus should be used as an absolute last case. Which I think WWII is pretty fitting of. Especially since:

I don't think appeasement was horrendous either. Again people look at it later and say  "OMG LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID" but he was trying to keep peace. He didn't want a war, and did what he could to try and prevent that.
Since we don't have future vision, he could've had no idea what Hitler was like. He thought, like a sane person, if you gave Hitler what he wanted, he'd be content. I also read that he did it to try and keep the more moderate forces in the Nazi Cabinet happy, if he took too hard line a stance maybe the more extreme forces would've been empowered.

As you said it was inevitable. Hitler was truly an insane human being, in ways we can't fully know. Nothing on Earth could satisfy him short of his goals, and he loved war. Had a hard on for it. Really was sad times.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 11:05
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage

Originally posted by The T

I agree with this short assessment. Just as today, there was no need for the US to jump into the war in Europe
 
Yes we were such idiots.  We should have allowed Hitler to get on with whatever he wanted to do.  Someone remind me, what was it he was up to? 
 
 

Feminazis? Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 11:22
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage

Originally posted by The T

I agree with this short assessment. Just as today, there was no need for the US to jump into the war in Europe
 
Yes we were such idiots.  We should have allowed Hitler to get on with whatever he wanted to do.  Someone remind me, what was it he was up to? 
 
 

Feminazis? Tongue
 
 ?
I don't think so?
 
I wonder how history would have looked upon the USA is they had sat and set an example watched from the sidelines. 
Help me I'm falling!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 18:16
Yeah, I'd imagine quite poorly but then again the US also is in the unique position of always being screwed in that regard.
"You leave us all the f**k alone, stay out of our business and quit policing the world" until something bad happens then the US is expected to help and would probably be blasted if they chose not to get involvedLOL

Of course I agree with that first part myself but different time though, different situation. It's weird to say but that was one time war was needed.
Especially since for 10 years I've been arguing against wars in Iraq, (later) Afghanistan, and calling for a large scale back in our defense budget, world presence, and change in foreign policy.



Edited by JJLehto - March 10 2012 at 18:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 18:31
The discussion is a little pointless considering that Hitler did the brilliant move of declaring war on the US himself thus making life easier for Roosevelt
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