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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: July 02 2012 at 09:46
I can only speak from courses that acquaintances and I have taken. The history that seems to be taught is very pro-American, pro-mixed economy, pro-presidents who were able to push the most legislation into existence.

I can't imagine what a blame America version of history looks like. I remember it being rammed down my throat from grade school to college how we helped the Japenese by nuking them and how slavery wasn't that bad.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anthony H. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 09:51
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521


I can't imagine what a blame America version of history looks like. I remember it being rammed down my throat from grade school to college how we helped the Japenese by nuking them and how slavery wasn't that bad.


What? Really? Slavery wasn't that bad? They really said that? Really? I'm extremely skeptical. But if they did actually say that and you're not just massively exaggerating, then that's not the norm at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 10:08
The argument went something like this:

1) Slaves sold in the slave trade were prisoners of war from warring tribes in Africa and would have been slaves anyway. Their conditions as slaves in the US were superior and afforded their offspring the chance of being free in the world's economic powerhouse generations later.

2) Many slaves were treated very well.

3) Indentured servants often lives in worse conditions than slaves.

4) Yes America participated in slavery, however we also put an end to it. We should be commended for that.

5) Normal stuff about giving Western culture to the savage.

My experience is not unique in being subject this.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 17:08
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by manofmystery

I'd gladly go to Hershey but I'm not a roller coaster fan.  I like all my organs where they're supposed to be, thank you.


This pretty much.

If my body's going to be subjected to unnatural g-forces then it'll be when I'm in a ship leaving preparing to leave the gravitational pull of the Earth.


Gosh yall are no fun :(

Yeah I may have to agree with Anthony.
Of course there are bound to be wild swings and differences even in university departments, but generally people seem to think the 'other' side is being taught. Which is a good thing, that does imply that perhaps the "agenda" isn't as biased as it may be thought.

However, absolutely a pro government, pro president agenda is taught. That is pretty obvious.


Edited by JJLehto - July 02 2012 at 17:09
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 18:09
This has nothing to do with this thread but anyway, cartoon thread it is. A great Argentinian cartoonist:



Translation:

1. Legs
2. Brain
3. Human contact
4. Culture
5. Ideals. Morals. Honesty.
6. Thy neighbour whom to love
7. God
8. It's important that he learns how things are from an early age.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2012 at 22:11
Originally posted by The T

This has nothing to do with this thread but anyway, cartoon thread it is. A great Argentinian cartoonist:



Translation:

1. Legs
2. Brain
3. Human contact
4. Culture
5. Ideals. Morals. Honesty.
6. Thy neighbour whom to love
7. God
8. It's important that he learns how things are from an early age.

Well, there's one particular group we can blame, but we have to look at ourselves sometimes too....

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 08:55
I was just happy that I remembered enough Spanish/Latin to read that without your translations.

Yeah for all our economic and governmental troubles, a good deal of the problem just comes down to a bit of a poisoned culture that cultivates these values in children.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 11:47
Nope, all that German I took did bupkis it seems.
Was still simple enough to figure out though.

I do like that kind of cartoon, or anything that focuses on the failures of individuals and/or humanity.
So bleak :D
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Post Options Post Options   Quote horsewithteeth11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 12:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 14:35
I just find it kind of funny that everyone has disregarded it already and is back to "we gon beat this thing."

Not that I mind since I find the SC a little scary, (and forgive my noobness but is there even a constitutional basis for even having a supreme court?). So yeah, after being upheld the GOP is still trying to get it repealed.
If they were ever successful, which I doubt, wouldn't it be bound to get back to SC and probably be upheld again?

I think this is like every other government program, once enacted it's here to stay.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 17:32
I find it hilarious that the masses would give up so much of their liberties for more free stuff. Figures!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 17:36
Originally posted by King of Loss

I find it hilarious that the masses would give up so much of their liberties for more free stuff. Figures!


Which of course, isn't free and never was.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 19:46
Originally posted by King of Loss

I find it hilarious that the masses would give up so much of their liberties for more free stuff. Figures!


Damn those Democrats for taking away my freedom to die because I'm too poor to pay for health care.  Wink

Not wanting to get into a debate on the mandate, because actually I don't believe Obamacare goes far enough in ensuring everyone gets needed health care.  I was disappointed Obama chickened out on a single-payer system or at least a public option. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote stonebeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 19:51
Originally posted by The Doctor

Damn those Democrats for taking away my freedom to die because I'm too poor to pay for health care.  Wink

It doesn't really matter if they die, because people who are poor deserve to be poor and deserve to have horrible heath care coverage.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 19:55
Originally posted by The Doctor

Originally posted by King of Loss

I find it hilarious that the masses would give up so much of their liberties for more free stuff. Figures!


Damn those Democrats for taking away my freedom to die because I'm too poor to pay for health care.  Wink

Not wanting to get into a debate on the mandate, because actually I don't believe Obamacare goes far enough in ensuring everyone gets needed health care.  I was disappointed Obama chickened out on a single-payer system or at least a public option. 


It doesn't make health care cheaper.  It makes it more expensive.  So would single-payer (in the US).

PLEASE Chester, read this:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 20:13
Well, Robert, I didn't read the whole thing obviously.  Seemed a bit too long as I'm trying to get my drink on.  However, I did read part of it and do agree that overuse of medical services is a large part of rising health care costs. I always want to smack people I know when they go to the doctor for a cold to get antibiotics and so forth.  But, the problem there is not just caused by patients, but also by the doctors who actually prescribe antibiotics for colds.  Some people may be dumb enough to think that antibiotics will actually help a cold, but a doctor knows better (if he doesn't he shouldn't be practicing medicine).  Doctors do nothing to discourage the overuse of medical services, in fact, sometimes they demand it.  A little personal anecdote...I have both high blood pressure and a mild case of asthma.  That means I need maintenance medications.  I had a doctor recently who demanded that I see him every three months to get my prescriptions renewed and go through blood work, etc. when I needed more medicine.  As I monitor my blood pressure at home, I didn't really see a need for the expense of seeing him every three months and going through tests, etc. every time I wanted a renewal of my prescription.  I, of course, found a different doctor who did not require that, but my point remains that some doctors encourage that behavior and some of the responsibility for that must lie with them. 

Of course, as the author points out, some of that may in fact be due to a cya attitude when it comes to malpractice, but I think there is also a large greed factor there.  The more patients they see, the more money they make. 

I'm not saying there should be unlimited health care for all, in the sense that I get to see a doctor 365 days a year if I so choose, there should be benefit limits, especially when it comes to minor things.  But I do think everyone has the right to basic coverage for medical emergencies, life-threatening illnesses and necessary prescription drugs.  And a huge part of the responsibility for seeing that patients do not abuse their benefits comes from the doctors. 


Edited by The Doctor - July 03 2012 at 20:19
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2012 at 21:09
Originally posted by The Doctor

Well, Robert, I didn't read the whole thing obviously.  Seemed a bit too long as I'm trying to get my drink on.  However, I did read part of it and do agree that overuse of medical services is a large part of rising health care costs. I always want to smack people I know when they go to the doctor for a cold to get antibiotics and so forth.  But, the problem there is not just caused by patients, but also by the doctors who actually prescribe antibiotics for colds.  Some people may be dumb enough to think that antibiotics will actually help a cold, but a doctor knows better (if he doesn't he shouldn't be practicing medicine).  Doctors do nothing to discourage the overuse of medical services, in fact, sometimes they demand it.  A little personal anecdote...I have both high blood pressure and a mild case of asthma.  That means I need maintenance medications.  I had a doctor recently who demanded that I see him every three months to get my prescriptions renewed and go through blood work, etc. when I needed more medicine.  As I monitor my blood pressure at home, I didn't really see a need for the expense of seeing him every three months and going through tests, etc. every time I wanted a renewal of my prescription.  I, of course, found a different doctor who did not require that, but my point remains that some doctors encourage that behavior and some of the responsibility for that must lie with them. 

Of course, as the author points out, some of that may in fact be due to a cya attitude when it comes to malpractice, but I think there is also a large greed factor there.  The more patients they see, the more money they make. 


I have high blood pressure and asthma too, but take no medication any longer for either.  I just don't get health care even though I now have insurance (have had it for a year).  I delivered our third child myself for #(&@ sake!

Insurance and single payer systems raise demand and therefore raise costs.  That isn't always due to doctor's greed (ask Negoba, who is a medical professional and I think a liberal) about this.

But Chester, it is not often that I see eye to eye with you.  Doctors wanting to see you so often, having to refer you to specialists when you KNOW what is wrong...I'm with you there man.  Excellent observation.  Clap


Originally posted by The Doctor


I'm not saying there should be unlimited health care for all, in the sense that I get to see a doctor 365 days a year if I so choose, there should be benefit limits, especially when it comes to minor things.  But I do think everyone has the right to basic coverage for medical emergencies, life-threatening illnesses and necessary prescription drugs.  And a huge part of the responsibility for seeing that patients do not abuse their benefits comes from the doctors. 


A "right" in the US must never infringe on another's right.  In this case, a right to basic coverage means someone has to be a doctor.  If no doctors existed in the US, could there be such a right?  And if you insist there was, how would you get health care to people?  Slavery?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2012 at 01:06

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2012 at 08:23


Remember the US doesn't give freedom to everyone when you eat your hot dogs and burgers today.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - July 04 2012 at 08:25
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2012 at 13:20
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521



Remember the US doesn't give freedom to everyone when you eat your hot dogs and burgers today.

Brings up my favorite Douglass quote:
 

“Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave.”
― Frederick Douglass

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