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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: April 16 2013 at 22:54
Originally posted by The T

I prefer to see a defense of the "I" as a necessary step when it's constantly attacked by the "we". I don't have a problem with a normal life of equilibrium.


I agree.
There is a natural collectivity to living in society and being human and we should be altruistic since it's right, but when collectivism gains too much official power it's bound to grow/become corrupt.


Originally posted by The T

dislike Tiger Woods by the way.


Ah but is it because of his "disregard for the ways of golf"?

I'm a casual fan BTW, but I like Sergio Garcia (long story) and Phil Mickelson thanks to my Uncle Approve


Edited by JJLehto - April 16 2013 at 22:56
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2013 at 23:23
I gotta let yall in on a secret.
Bernanke and I are tight, we hang on the weekends and smoke salvia. He sets interest rates based on how many devils are raping us on the trip.
Which was 46 today....be prepared for market chaos tomorrow :O
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2013 at 23:27
No I just dislike famous golfers. That's the communist in me detesting this so-called-sport's rich celebrities...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 09:15
What a sleazeball. One of the biggest sleazeballs ever. That's what I think of Tiger and his rampages....Confused


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 09:47
Originally posted by manofmystery

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

You didn't get anything from Rand, because you read 20 pages. You can comment on her when you've read something.
 
I disagree.  You can get the point of any of her books about a page in and spare yourself the rest of the awful writing.  Tongue


But you'll miss out on the well crafted Rand sex scenes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 14:41
On that whole individualism thing. Pretty short and simple summary right here:
Individualism does not mean the state of nature, running around killing and stealing and may the better man win. Nor does it have to mean being some cold, distant shell of a human that needs no one.
This is where Rand fails most in conveying a message.
 
 
Unrelated note: I wonder what ya guys here think of our current situation.
The stimulus failed to do anything, as has deficit spending in general. However, we had no grand public work programs and really hasn't much of the spending ended? Why exactly is the economy still so sluggish?
Inflation?
All the QE? (I guess related to inflation)
Obamacare keeping businesses from hiring?
Keeping houses propped up and trying to re-inflate a bubble?
 
What do yall think? With that, what is the proposed solution?
 
Is all this not really the result of anything but simply the market finally clearing itself out after that toxic sh*tstorm brewing for years?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 15:35
GDP growth hasn't rebounded as it has after previous recessions.  Companies are sitting on a ton of cash.  Not sure what can be done to incentivize them.

Inflation is probably too low.

* waits to get attacked *


Edited by Padraic - April 17 2013 at 15:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 17:00
Well if that IS the case, can't hold it against you.
Libertarians rarely want to accept this but need to live in reality LOL

Odd that inflation may be too low, has the market gotten addicted to inflation fueled bubbles and need it now?
sh*t, I hope not!
But yeah, while I know this hasn't been a "free market" recovery at all I gotta be real, this hasn't been the total spending monster many believe either. Keynesians say we needed more, the marketers say it's been too much, the money supply has surely not contracted. It's like every idea has let us down. I expected more by now though, something is holding down recovery.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 19:34
They build piles of cash and probably invest them in places/instruments that give them a good rate of return.  Now Japan has launched a massive note printing binge...whether that will help their economy rebound, remains to be seen.   Investment has ground to a halt.   Rather than betting big on business growth, big companies are simply maintaining status quo and pocketing risk free (or, less risky, if you will) returns on their cash piles.  It's a strange situation and I don't know how govts are going to resolve it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 21:45
Originally posted by King of Loss

What a sleazeball. One of the biggest sleazeballs ever. That's what I think of Tiger and his rampages....Confused
He disgraced the game at Augusta.  Cheater off the course, cheater on the course.  Sickening example for the kids who will be the future of the game.
 
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by manofmystery

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

You didn't get anything from Rand, because you read 20 pages. You can comment on her when you've read something.
 
I disagree.  You can get the point of any of her books about a page in and spare yourself the rest of the awful writing.  Tongue


But you'll miss out on the well crafted Rand sex scenes.
 
*shutters*
 
Anthem is the only book of hers I've attempted to read, honestly.  I got the point of the entire novel (short story, my ass) on the first page but continued reading until the terrible, wooden writing got the better of me and I had to give up on it.  I tend to see Ayn Rand much in the way Murray Rothbard did.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 22:02
What is "wooden" writing? I think it's ok. And what I really like is the subject matter. Substance over style I'd say. Short and to the point.

I wonder what Ron would say about Rand's well crafted sex scenes .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2013 at 22:44
Originally posted by rogerthat

They build piles of cash and probably invest them in places/instruments that give them a good rate of return.  Now Japan has launched a massive note printing binge...whether that will help their economy rebound, remains to be seen.   Investment has ground to a halt.   Rather than betting big on business growth, big companies are simply maintaining status quo and pocketing risk free (or, less risky, if you will) returns on their cash piles.  It's a strange situation and I don't know how govts are going to resolve it. 


100% correct, and that final part is the real sticky wicket!
Even if you believe in the Keynes method, with things this bad and companies perpetually sitting by...how much $$ will it take?? I really don't think any amount can do it...we became a command economy during WWII which IMO was greater than the spending itself. Maybe that will be the government solution. I bet they'd love it!
And we danced down the road to serfdom!




To be fair MoM, you've said you just are not a fan of reading itself. If ya don't like it then that's just gunna be the case.
Anthem was VERY short man.
Rothbard was quite a nutter himself though. His writing on the Fed was huge for me but he and Mises are pretty damn out there. Hayek is my guyCool


Edited by JJLehto - April 17 2013 at 22:52
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 10:05
Originally posted by JJLehto

Originally posted by rogerthat

They build piles of cash and probably invest them in places/instruments that give them a good rate of return.  Now Japan has launched a massive note printing binge...whether that will help their economy rebound, remains to be seen.   Investment has ground to a halt.   Rather than betting big on business growth, big companies are simply maintaining status quo and pocketing risk free (or, less risky, if you will) returns on their cash piles.  It's a strange situation and I don't know how govts are going to resolve it. 


100% correct, and that final part is the real sticky wicket!
Even if you believe in the Keynes method, with things this bad and companies perpetually sitting by...how much $$ will it take?? I really don't think any amount can do it...we became a command economy during WWII which IMO was greater than the spending itself. Maybe that will be the government solution. I bet they'd love it!
And we danced down the road to serfdom!





Well, it would have been an altogether cheaper solution had they simply let the markets take care of themselves, as they said all along that they would.  But they baulked at the political cost of it and blinked.  It's up to them now to clean up the mess they created but it looks like they are running out of ideas.   I read somewhere that loan defaults have already begun to go up in the US.  So that means the world is heading for the next financial crisis, having barely recovered at all from the last one.  This is why patchwork solutions don't work.


Edited by rogerthat - April 18 2013 at 10:05
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 11:22
Originally posted by JJLehto

On that whole individualism thing. Pretty short and simple summary right here:
Individualism does not mean the state of nature, running around killing and stealing and may the better man win. Nor does it have to mean being some cold, distant shell of a human that needs no one.
This is where Rand fails most in conveying a message.
 
 
Unrelated note: I wonder what ya guys here think of our current situation.
The stimulus failed to do anything, as has deficit spending in general. However, we had no grand public work programs and really hasn't much of the spending ended? Why exactly is the economy still so sluggish?
Inflation?
All the QE? (I guess related to inflation)
Obamacare keeping businesses from hiring?
Keeping houses propped up and trying to re-inflate a bubble?
 
What do yall think? With that, what is the proposed solution?
 
Is all this not really the result of anything but simply the market finally clearing itself out after that toxic sh*tstorm brewing for years?


My best guess would be that general uncertainty governs a lot of that right now. Economic and foreign policy seems so undetermined and really balanced on a precipice at this point that long term forecasts just aren't reasonable.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 11:23
Originally posted by Padraic

GDP growth hasn't rebounded as it has after previous recessions.  Companies are sitting on a ton of cash.  Not sure what can be done to incentivize them.

Inflation is probably too low.

* waits to get attacked *


Troll.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 11:24
Originally posted by manofmystery

I tend to see Ayn Rand much in the way Murray Rothbard did.


You used to be an avid supporter and cult member until she insulted your wife?


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - April 18 2013 at 11:24
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 14:18
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by manofmystery

I tend to see Ayn Rand much in the way Murray Rothbard did.


You used to be an avid supporter and cult member until she insulted your wife?
Quite right.
 
He also thought Atlas Shrugged was one of the greatest books ever. The Rand/Libertarian squabble is silly anyway.
 
I agree it may just be general lack of confidence, and is the only way to improvement simply the "wait it out" thought?
It may have to be, after bailouts, tons of $$ injected, trying to keep asset/housing prices up if there's still no confidence I dont see what governent could do even if they wanted.
 
As Rogerthat said, Japan will be a nice experiment. I had to look it up...over 1 trillion yen injection in 2 years? If this ends up doing nothing I wonder if Keynesians will still say "it wasnt enough". Guess we need WWIII....good thing Korea is acting upCryDisapprove
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 14:23
Originally posted by rogerthat


  So that means the world is heading for the next financial crisis, having barely recovered at all from the last one.  This is why patchwork solutions don't work.
I do believe it. Seems like it's happening.  
 
 
We shrugged off the talks of a "double dip recession" and all the way back in 2010 I read someone's prediction (who had a great record over his career) that the next rcession (or the dip whatever) was coming in 2013...
One thing I have learned is the lone nuts who spell doom and gloom should at least be listened to.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 20:53
Originally posted by JJLehto

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by manofmystery

I tend to see Ayn Rand much in the way Murray Rothbard did.


You used to be an avid supporter and cult member until she insulted your wife?
Quite right.
 
He also thought Atlas Shrugged was one of the greatest books ever. The Rand/Libertarian squabble is silly anyway.
 
I agree it may just be general lack of confidence, and is the only way to improvement simply the "wait it out" thought?
It may have to be, after bailouts, tons of $$ injected, trying to keep asset/housing prices up if there's still no confidence I dont see what governent could do even if they wanted.
 
As Rogerthat said, Japan will be a nice experiment. I had to look it up...over 1 trillion yen injection in 2 years? If this ends up doing nothing I wonder if Keynesians will still say "it wasnt enough". Guess we need WWIII....good thing Korea is acting upCryDisapprove

Japan is afraid they're going to a second-rate nation, sandwiched between Russia, China and the US... Which they already are. I don't think the yen injection will work very well...


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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2013 at 22:15
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by manofmystery

I tend to see Ayn Rand much in the way Murray Rothbard did.


You used to be an avid supporter and cult member until she insulted your wife?
Hey man, nobody talks about my wife
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