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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Padraic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: July 12 2013 at 19:18
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Padraic

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by The T

socialism (the purer variant) has shown to be a failed system

Also - please explain why the NFL is so successful if socialism is failed.


LOL

Laugh it up.  If the NFL was run the way a Libertarian would run it, it would suck.


Please explain.

The "socialism" of the NFL is what keeps it competitive.  We never know who's going to make it to the Superbowl.  A team could suck for years and then all of a sudden do quite well.  The profit sharing is what keeps it competitive like that.  Without it, you'd have a few teams that ALWAYS went to the superbowl and most teams wouldn't stand a chance because they'd never be able to afford to pay the good players.  I wouldn't want to watch it if it were like that.


Why wouldn't libertarian-minded people come up with such an arrangement?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2013 at 21:15
Originally posted by Padraic


Why wouldn't libertarian-minded people come up with such an arrangement?

Well, you might.  But Rob or Jacob - never.  They believe in the absolute ideal that if a company (or individual) doesn't make money, they/it should die.  Survival of the fittest.  Free market.  No entity should ever be FORCED (they loved using words like that) to help another.

Do you like seat-belts and airbags?  Do you think they're a good idea?

Because they never would've happened in a free market.  They were resisted by car companies.  Safety regulations like that were the result of Ralph Nader lobbying like crazy and driving the car companies crazy.  The car companies actually paid women to try to get into bed with Nader so they could have dirt on him.  If you like seat-belts and airbags and wheels that actually stay parallel when you go around a curve (rather than having your car flip and cause an accident, like they used to), then you'd better think twice about the free market ideology.  Because you never would've had that stuff if we had a "free market" like the hard nose libertarians want.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2013 at 22:02
This NFL ~ Socialism argument is probably the most absurd thing I've read in the 700 pages or whatnot that this thread has had. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2013 at 22:56
Geoff, do you really think Rob or Jacob believe that if an individual doesn't make enough money he/she should die? You have quite the disturbing ideas sometimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 07:12
Originally posted by The T

Geoff, do you really think Rob or Jacob believe that if an individual doesn't make enough money he/she should die? You have quite the disturbing ideas sometimes.

No, they think that magically all of these poor souls will just...be taken care of!  Through liberty!  Yay!

We have enough selfish b*****ds in this world to contradict that view - if people were so full of good will, they wouldn't be fighting so damn hard against a government that is trying to set up charitable programs.  They'd be saying "this is a good thing - I was going to do the same thing of my own free will, but if someone wants to organize a larger effort, that will probably be more efficient than each one of us doing it on our own!"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 07:13
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

This NFL ~ Socialism argument is probably the most absurd thing I've read in the 700 pages or whatnot that this thread has had. 

The 700 pages of this thread are the most absurd thing I've seen in my life.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 07:41
Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 07:51
Originally posted by Epignosis

Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!

Now explain people like the Koch brothers.

A good deal of charitable giving in the US is to try to APPEAR like you are not really a greedy b*****d.  You give a very small portion of your income to alleviate the guilt of knowing that you are much more well off than others, and you make sure people see you've done so, so that people will stop bothering you about it.

Like I said, if you're so charitable, you wouldn't be so damn bothered about people trying to ORGANIZE.  Because that's what this is.  You insist government is bad.  You're 100% all in on that.  No exceptions.  Then you talk about how in a libertarian society people will just naturally organize when they need to.  I call that government.  So I say you're stuck in a cycle.  You want there to be no government, so you hack away at government until you succeed, and then when you do...government springs up in its place.  So you're back at sqaure one of your ridiculous crusade.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 08:08
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!

Now explain people like the Koch brothers.

A good deal of charitable giving in the US is to try to APPEAR like you are not really a greedy b*****d.  You give a very small portion of your income to alleviate the guilt of knowing that you are much more well off than others, and you make sure people see you've done so, so that people will stop bothering you about it.

Like I said, if you're so charitable, you wouldn't be so damn bothered about people trying to ORGANIZE.  Because that's what this is.  You insist government is bad.  You're 100% all in on that.  No exceptions.  Then you talk about how in a libertarian society people will just naturally organize when they need to.  I call that government.  So I say you're stuck in a cycle.  You want there to be no government, so you hack away at government until you succeed, and then when you do...government springs up in its place.  So you're back at sqaure one of your ridiculous crusade.


I care about how people organize.  I care about stewardship.  I care about minimizing waste and fraud

If people are as greedy as you say, then how is it ever a good idea to give politicians control of other people's money?  It doesn't help that politicians regularly use the purse as leverage for their own political aspirations.

People organizing themselves is not government.  The church cannot put me in jail for not giving them money.  St. Jude's cannot garnish my wages for not supporting them.  Meals on Wheels cannot put a lien on my house because I didn't volunteer with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 08:11
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!

Now explain people like the Koch brothers.



What about them?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 08:16
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

This NFL ~ Socialism argument is probably the most absurd thing I've read in the 700 pages or whatnot that this thread has had. 

The 700 pages of this thread are the most absurd thing I've seen in my life.


Do really want to talk about the NFL?  You say it's revenue sharing policy helps competitive balance, that's absolutely right. It's also an example of you just cherry picking just about the only fact possible so that you can trot out a simulacrum of a logical argument. Let's just talk about two other things then that are similar results,

1) The draft. Not only are the NFL granted a ridiculous monopoly from competitors, but they've erected a similar barrier to entry for their own labor supply. In the name of competitiveness, or whatever bullsh*t facile soundbites major sports leagues like to tout every year, players who wish the enter the NFL have no ability to negotiate salary or even employer. It's a system that forces players to turn what should be the second most productive and lucrative period of their very short playing careers into one where they work under a severely undervalued and team controlled contract until they can hit free agency. (which, you know, has only been around for 10 years. Forget about players making any money before that).

2) Players health. I'm not even going to go into detail here. People have been debilitating themselves playing the game to the complete indifference of the owners.

So yeah the NFL is a great beacon of socialistic success. The rich capital owners become more powerful at the expense of the health and well being of the laborers.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 08:27
About a third of all that giving is to religion which is basically insurance cover. And I can imagine whose pockets are lined.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 09:31
Only thing I know about the Koch brothers is the incredibly stupid comment one of them made the other day about incomes saying that one of 34,000 puts you in the 1% of the world. It might be true when you put the poorest countries in the world in the calculations, but it's insensitive and stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 10:27
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!

Now explain people like the Koch brothers.



What about them?

Oh goody.  They give one half of one percent of their wealth.  I should praise that. 
(That was sarcasm.)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 10:35
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!

Now explain people like the Koch brothers.



What about them?

Oh goody.  They give one half of one percent of their wealth.  I should praise that. 
(That was sarcasm.)


If you were running a charity, would you rather have one-half of one percent of their wealth or fifteen percent of mine?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 12:03
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Yep, we're some greedy b*****ds all right!

Now explain people like the Koch brothers.



What about them?

Oh goody.  They give one half of one percent of their wealth.  I should praise that. 
(That was sarcasm.)


If you were running a charity, would you rather have one-half of one percent of their wealth or fifteen percent of mine?

You're missing the point.  The point is that the government is doing this awful thing called "taxes" that you hate so much, and right now they're taking LESS of a percentage of the Koch's money and more of a percentage of your money, and people like me are saying this should be fixed by taking more of the Koch's money and using it for programs that help society.  You're saying there should be no taxes and no government whatsoever.  I say that if that were to happen, you wouldn't get no government - you'd get government by the greedy Kochs.  Remove one system and another will take over.  And I don't think you'll like the system that takes over.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 12:52
Ah.  Missing the point.  Right.  Ermm

Geoff, do you know what percentage I pay in federal income taxes?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by Epignosis

Ah.  Missing the point.  Right.  Ermm

Geoff, do you know what percentage I pay in federal income taxes?


Do you know what percentage the Kochs pay in federal income taxes?

Moving on - here is a blog I wrote entitled "The Situational Leadership Model vs. Modern American Conservatism".  An appropriate Rocky and Bullwinkle alternate title might be "why I think Conservative Libertarians are idiots."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 13:28
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

Ah.  Missing the point.  Right.  Ermm

Geoff, do you know what percentage I pay in federal income taxes?


Do you know what percentage the Kochs pay in federal income taxes?


I will bet you anything that it isn't negative 22%, which is about what my federal income tax rate is. 

Originally posted by dtguitarfan


Moving on - here is a blog I wrote entitled "The Situational Leadership Model vs. Modern American Conservatism".  An appropriate Rocky and Bullwinkle alternate title might be "why I think Conservative Libertarians are idiots."


More name-calling I see.  Sleepy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2013 at 13:52
Any comments on what Pat (Equality) said about the NFL comparison? Because it seems the "moving on" is a "I can't answer that so let's ignore it" strategy. .

Also, what better invitation to read your blog and your ideas than dropping some insults... Come on.
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