"Freedom" thread or something

The Doctor wrote: Because everybody needs to eat to survive.  Most do not need to be incubated to survive.  Further, even an incubated 3-month old fetus will probably not survive.

Yes, but an adult or even quite young child is (at least hypothetically) capable of feeding himself. An infant is not, and without active care will perish just as sure as a fetus without incubation will. I don't see a qualitative difference there.

The Doctor wrote: Because everybody needs to eat to survive.

Yeah, says you.
Mortal


Ah abortion, now we're at some fun stuff!
Ironically still horribly torn between my gut and brain, though I lean towards the "keep it legal, safe and limited" line.
I always see it framed as legal or not...has there ever been a non governmental solution proposed??

Like marriage privatization, how about keeping abortion totally out of the hands of government? It'd be between the person(s) involved and a doctor.
Though I realize this has the issue of pleasing neither side, and my fear is still leading to the infamous back alley abortion and other ways...

It's a real sticky wicket, I never will end up with a firm decision probably

^
I don't think that's a fair representation of the reality of abortion. Why does it so often turn into the exceptions to the rules becoming the reason for defining opposition? What you're saying about being "able to f**k without consequences" is not part of any of the overarching arguments for maintaining abortion and reproductive rights. It's like saying the angry old people were completely correct in what they were yelling at John McCain the other day about wanting to shoot the "illegals" and taking away all their welfare so they'll go home. Their arguments aren't based on the greater reality of the situation. They made McCain actually look like a sane and reasonable person by attacking the exceptions to the rule, and their own fantasies of who they believe is taking something from them.

Who is actually arguing for "freer and freer abortion?" As far as I can tell, the arguments to retain abortion and reproductive rights intact are coming from people who oppose those attempting to remove those rights entirely. There's a big difference in having access to the option at all, as we do now, and the "let's just f**k and suck those little monsters out, then do it again" kind of misrepresentation you're talking about.


Edited by *frinspar* - February 23 2013 at 21:26

Wow. I really should avoid this thread from here on out if such distortions of truth and abuse of honesty are going to be argued as reality.
Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong. And I don't feel I need to be bothered to justify my words if this is the starting point of the discussion here.
Short memories being what they are these days, though, I feel compelled to remind you that the last republican candidate for Vice President vocally supported all of the things you say he hasn't. My head can barely stop spinning, especially since he still supports those same positions.

thellama73 wrote: *frinspar* wrote: Wow. I really should avoid this thread from here on out if such distortions of truth and abuse of honesty are going to be argued as reality. Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong. And I don't feel I need to be bothered to justify my words if this is the starting point of the discussion here. Short memories being what they are these days, though, I feel compelled to remind you that the last republican candidate for Vice President vocally supported all of the things you say he hasn't. My head can barely stop spinning, especially since he still supports those same positions. I'm not sure which part of what I said you're disputing. That there has been heated opposition to partial birth abortion bans? Link That most Republicans favor exceptions to abortion bans? Link  I never made any claims about Paul Ryan, so I'm not sure why you brought him up. That the far left celebrates abortion rather than viewing it as a necessary evil? Link Sanctimonious high-horsery is not a substitute for debate.

 

Edited by akamaisondufromage - February 24 2013 at 07:08

IDK how many leftists celebrate it...at least openly.
Usually it's a necessary evil thing, OR the "it will happen regardless" line...which is true. Much as people may find it utterly wrong, there is the "can you legislate morality" thing, even if you believe fully its murder, people clearly choose to do it anyway and can you stop that?
I never did get a definitive answer as to how it would be policed.

Besides the act itself, I always wondered about punishment. It never gets brought up...but if abortion was made illegal, there would have to be punishment correct? What would it be? Now I know most here oppose the death penalty...but many in the US don't and if abortion is murder wouldn't the penalty have to be death?

Are there teens that just have sex knowing "hey I can just get an abortion" sure..but can't say this is 100% the case.
Just as much as many pro-lifers support and are quick to use the death penalty, support imperialist foreign policy, and tend to disregard the environment, with all its life.

*frinspar* wrote: And I don't feel I need to be bothered to justify my words if this is the starting point of the discussion here.

Not to be a dick but that's total bullsh*t, and lazy. Pop in, say something and leave? No need to justify your words?
You are right then, you don't belong here. You can disagree vehemently but there is always debate, if you wanna take the easy road and just say something and leave then you're more in the wrong. The mentality is one of the things wrong with this country.

Keep it legal, safe and limited I say. That last part is important, make sure the education and resources are there, especially where it may be needed most.




Edited by JJLehto - February 24 2013 at 11:04

^And of course you ignored 90% of my post to focus only on the last sentence. I was just posing a question. What is the justification for some people (I'll correct myself) wanting freer and freer abortion? Agree with it or not, I see the justification those who want to restrict or even stop abortion have (saving a life - if it is worth saving or if it is "life" or whatever is another matter). For those in the unrestricted abortion camp, what moves them? As I said, I concede the need for some forms of abortion, even some that don't need peril or rape. I have ways said that. But when I see a ban on abortions after the third month called extreme, I wonder what isn't considered extreme then.

I favor the legality of abortion. But not turning it into just another "alternative". It makes it look like just another act in life. That's why I said what I said.

Slartibartfast wrote:

And speaking of straw men...