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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: July 14 2013 at 08:45
What always seems odd to me are the laws in the States regarding Child Seats.  Pretty poor in some states as far as I can see.  the children don't get much of a choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:10
Originally posted by Epignosis

I don't really care about seat belts.  Used to ride in the back of pickup trucks all the time.

Then you've obviously never been in an accident - or had a loved one in an accident - where you (or the person you loved) would've been killed if it weren't for the seatbelt.

And you're falling on the old Libertarian stupidity of "well, if I don't want it, then that means that my free market logic is right."  Whereas I'm saying that the majority of the people see the reasoning behind seat belts and want there to be seat belts in cars, but we never would've had them if it weren't for Government stepping in and doing the "tyrannical" thing (that would be the Libertarian way of expressing it - not mine).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:13
I don't care about riding in the back of a truck.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:27
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

I don't really care about seat belts.  Used to ride in the back of pickup trucks all the time.

Then you've obviously never been in an accident - or had a loved one in an accident - where you (or the person you loved) would've been killed if it weren't for the seatbelt.

And you're falling on the old Libertarian stupidity of "well, if I don't want it, then that means that my free market logic is right."  Whereas I'm saying that the majority of the people see the reasoning behind seat belts and want there to be seat belts in cars, but we never would've had them if it weren't for Government stepping in and doing the "tyrannical" thing (that would be the Libertarian way of expressing it - not mine).


Only 68% of people in the US wear seat beltsTongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:37
What makes you smarter.........??
a) Googling "facts about seat belts"
b) Actually using seat belts
c) Riding in the back of pickup truck
d) Arguing about any of the above choices on a meaningless forum
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:43
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

I don't really care about seat belts.  Used to ride in the back of pickup trucks all the time.

Then you've obviously never been in an accident - or had a loved one in an accident - where you (or the person you loved) would've been killed if it weren't for the seatbelt.

And you're falling on the old Libertarian stupidity of "well, if I don't want it, then that means that my free market logic is right."  Whereas I'm saying that the majority of the people see the reasoning behind seat belts and want there to be seat belts in cars, but we never would've had them if it weren't for Government stepping in and doing the "tyrannical" thing (that would be the Libertarian way of expressing it - not mine).


Only 68% of people in the US wear seat beltsTongue
 
I wonder if that is because Americans are so keen on displaying their liberty to everyone around them or if it is because of ignorance or that most of those who don't wear seat/safety belts live in rural areas where they rarely meet another car. 
 
There is an argument for removing seatbelts from all cars as speed kills, drivers might be less inclined to excessive speed if none of the safety devices are available - not likely to happen though and would only 'work' if no cars had them.
 
I feel most sorry for the kids of the parents who don't use a seatbelt as it seems they don't think their kids are very valuable too.  Oh well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:44
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Nobody addressed Ralph Nader and seat belts.  You like seat belts?  You know you have them because of legislation that Ralph Nader made happen? 

That's what I think it so stupid about this "free market" idea.  The corporations fought Nader tooth and nail on seat belts and air bags, and said things like "if we have to do this, we won't make a profit!"  That was proven wrong in the end, but it took government FORCING (oh, you guys hate when I use that word, don't you) them to do the right thing.  It usually takes some governmental authority FORCING companies to do the right thing before it becomes common practice.  Which is why "the free market" is crap.  Actually, there's a ton of legislation that Nader made happen that goes against your silly "free market" theory, you should study up on his life sometime.


What? I'm not familiar with this story of the seat belt.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:48
perhaps 32% of Amer'cans are too obese to fit a standard seat belt. And if they all wore them the auto industry wouldn't have developed the technology of fitting every car with an inflatable/deflating plastic bag operated by high explosives. You can stand in the way if progress only if you're too fat to get out of its way.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:51
Would you guys make cigarettes illegal if you could?  Surely that would save FAR more lives and eliminate far more human misery and health expense than stuff like seat belts. 

Why do we say, you MUST wear a seatbelt because we care about your life....but hell, smoke up, no problem as long as you're not inside our establishment. 

I wear seatbelts of course....and support them.  I've just always had to laugh about the safety people who worry about all of these things but have not stopped the production of one of the greatest killing machines this side of bullets and germs.



Edited by Finnforest - July 14 2013 at 09:55



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 09:57
The anti-tobacco lobby is winning even against the might of the tobacco industry, we've already experienced discrimination against smokers on a massive scale unprecedented in world history, legislation on the control of sale is now some of the strictest for any single product, this is tantamount to a ban via the backdoor. Seatbelt legislation is small potatoes by comparison.


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 10:06
All true, but you can still buy smokes and use them quite easily, something not going away despite their obvious danger.  There will not be a complete shutdown of cigs despite any lobby.  I just find that interesting that cigs are allowed to continue on, despite the rules again smoking indoors, while we fret on about other safety minutia. 

BTW I don't support the war against smokers....they're some of my favorite people. 




Edited by Finnforest - July 14 2013 at 10:11



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 10:16
You could make similar arguments for every activity known to man, every thing is potentially harmful. I don't buy into the health and safety gone mad rhetoric, however I don't object to being protected against other people's stupidity. If passive smoking is dangerous (and the evidence for that is suspect even if the conclusions are still possibly true) then I don't object to people being protected from my stupidity. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 11:16
One uncle of mine would still be alive had he been wearing his seatbelt one stupid Sunday morning. I would have much more than a ridiculous scar in my forehead had I not been wearing one when I had a ridiculous accident about 11 years ago. So I like seat belts.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 12:51
Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

I do think that there should be a government, but I'm beginning to come around to the idea that taxation should be voluntary.  Think about it - if people want the things that a government typically provides, won't they be willing to pay for them?  They already do!  Except in a system like this, if the people don't like what the government is doing, they can just stop paying them - and the government will have to alter their policies to fit the will of the people. 
That's what we do. Since our political parties are funded from the taxes proportionally to the votes they get, if you stop voting for party A and decide switching your vote to party B, this effectively means that you stop paying to party A and decide to pay instead to party B, whose policies you agree more with. But paying to some party is compulsory, you can't just say, sorry I don't contribute.
The rich can't influence this much because funding via donations is strictly limited and controlled.


Funding political parties is not the same as funding government programs.

What if you don't agree with any of the political parties?  What if you don't care about politics?  If I lived in Belgium I may just be put in prison for tax evasion.  And I'm not kidding.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 13:48
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Nobody addressed Ralph Nader and seat belts.  You like seat belts?  You know you have them because of legislation that Ralph Nader made happen? 

That's what I think it so stupid about this "free market" idea.  The corporations fought Nader tooth and nail on seat belts and air bags, and said things like "if we have to do this, we won't make a profit!"  That was proven wrong in the end, but it took government FORCING (oh, you guys hate when I use that word, don't you) them to do the right thing.  It usually takes some governmental authority FORCING companies to do the right thing before it becomes common practice.  Which is why "the free market" is crap.  Actually, there's a ton of legislation that Nader made happen that goes against your silly "free market" theory, you should study up on his life sometime.


What? I'm not familiar with this story of the seat belt.

Read up on it: http://www.pophistorydig.com/?tag=general-motors-ralph-nader

One highlight:
Initially, Nader and his book were featured at one U.S. Senate hearing in early 1966.  But a furor erupted shortly thereafter when it was learned that General Motors had hired private investigators to try to find dirt on Nader to discredit him as a Congressional witness.


If you have the time, watch the documentary "An Unreasonable Man".

His life discredits "Free Market Theory".  If there were any truth to "Free Market Theory", you wouldn't have General Motors hiring prostitutes to try to get Ralph Nader in bed with them and sending private investigators after him.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 13:59
You wouldn't have automotive bailouts either.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 14:22
Originally posted by Epignosis

You wouldn't have automotive bailouts either.  

There's your problem.  You believe that if you can find one thing I dislike about the system, that proves that the whole system should go.

Yes, the system has failed at times.  That doesn't mean I believe the system should go.  I believe we should improve the system.  The problems in life occur when one party gains power over others and uses it to their detriment.  You think that because the government has misused their power, there should be no more government.  But we need the government to keep corporations from gaining too much power and create a balance.  Yes, our government has failed because they have been influenced by the corporations.  But that doesn't mean "throw out government" - this would be exactly what the corporations would LOVE for us to do.  Give them ALL the power.  Oh boy.  Now, we don't need to throw out government.  We need to fix it.  Make campaign money come from taxes and not donations from corporations, and stop corporate lobbying.  Doing that would change everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 14:31
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Epignosis

You wouldn't have automotive bailouts either.  

There's your problem.  You believe that if you can find one thing I dislike about the system, that proves that the whole system should go.

Yes, the system has failed at times.  That doesn't mean I believe the system should go.  I believe we should improve the system.  The problems in life occur when one party gains power over others and uses it to their detriment.  You think that because the government has misused their power, there should be no more government.  But we need the government to keep corporations from gaining too much power and create a balance.  Yes, our government has failed because they have been influenced by the corporations.  But that doesn't mean "throw out government" - this would be exactly what the corporations would LOVE for us to do.  Give them ALL the power.  Oh boy.  Now, we don't need to throw out government.  We need to fix it.  Make campaign money come from taxes and not donations from corporations, and stop corporate lobbying.  Doing that would change everything.


Can you find one thing I dislike about Libertarianism?  Tongue

Our government doesn't do this at all.  What is this "power" you're talking about anyway?  What is "too much power?"  What exactly is "balance?"  You speak in such nebulous terms.  I asked you to define your terms several days ago, but (predictably) you refused.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 14:41
Originally posted by Epignosis



Can you find one thing I dislike about Libertarianism?  Tongue


Obviously not, because there is no truly Libertarian government in any country in the world.  Except if we go WAAAAAAAAAAY back in history to the days when there was no government and men clobbered women over the head with a club and dragged them back to their caves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 14:46
Originally posted by Epignosis

I asked you to define your terms several days ago, but (predictably) you refused.

You refused (or were unable to - that's my suspicion) to show me a country that is operating on a Libertarian government (except this tiny little thing that doesn't really qualify as a "country", and isn't a purely Libertarian government, which you admit to begin with).  Therefore I feel no need to define my "nebulous" terms.  Giving me a hard time about "nebulous" terms is just your way of being a difficult pain anyways.  You insist on misinterpreting everything I say and twisting data to match your preconceived notions, so I realize if I were to be specific about anything you'd just pick and pick and pick and insist you've proven that everything except Libertarianism is wrong.  So I don't particularly want to be specific with you any more. 

But if you could be specific about a Libertarian country, then maybe we'll talk.
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