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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 15:18
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Because as I've been trying to say, despite the original intentions (though I would argue even then that they weren't so libertarian) the US has not progressed in a Libertarian fashion and clearly throughout the years it has shifted to a country with an entirely different type of government as its goal which has nothing to do with the initial state of the system so to speak. 
Well, that's precisely what I meant, that you may start Libertarian but eventually you will shift because Libertarian is not a natural and balanced state of being, there's no Libertarian Equilibrium.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 17:08
Hey, so...why isn't anyone answering rogerthat?  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 17:14
^Because I like to think before I post and have good information to contribute to the discussion and I'm not going to stupidly try to answer his points without looking into what he has to say first.  That takes time.
In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 17:16
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Because as I've been trying to say, despite the original intentions (though I would argue even then that they weren't so libertarian) the US has not progressed in a Libertarian fashion and clearly throughout the years it has shifted to a country with an entirely different type of government as its goal which has nothing to do with the initial state of the system so to speak. 
Well, that's precisely what I meant, that you may start Libertarian but eventually you will shift because Libertarian is not a natural and balanced state of being, there's no Libertarian Equilibrium.


The fact that the US has moved away from it's more libertarian beginnings does not prove that libertarianism is not sustainable.  It wasn't because of libertarianism itself that the US has become less libertarian, but because of the greedy power grabs of politicians and the lack of watchfulness on the part of the American people. 
In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 17:44
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

^Because I like to think before I post and have good information to contribute to the discussion and I'm not going to stupidly try to answer his points without looking into what he has to say first.  That takes time.

Translation: he made a brilliant argument that you have no answer to, so you're going to go looking for some Conservative propaganda that lies about everything he mentioned so you can say "everything you said is not true!  Liberty forever!"
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 17:44
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Hey, so...why isn't anyone answering rogerthat?  Wink


Because most of us aren't in a discussion with him so we are not reading his quote battle?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 17:46
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Because as I've been trying to say, despite the original intentions (though I would argue even then that they weren't so libertarian) the US has not progressed in a Libertarian fashion and clearly throughout the years it has shifted to a country with an entirely different type of government as its goal which has nothing to do with the initial state of the system so to speak. 
Well, that's precisely what I meant, that you may start Libertarian but eventually you will shift because Libertarian is not a natural and balanced state of being, there's no Libertarian Equilibrium.


That's neither an argument against Libertarianism nor a unique feature to Libertarianism. People change. Governments change. Ideas change.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 18:36
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Hey, so...why isn't anyone answering rogerthat?  Wink


Because most of us aren't in a discussion with him so we are not reading his quote battle?

Translation: because you can't deal with what he's saying....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 18:38
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

^Because I like to think before I post and have good information to contribute to the discussion and I'm not going to stupidly try to answer his points without looking into what he has to say first.  That takes time.

Translation: he made a brilliant argument that you have no answer to, so you're going to go looking for some Conservative propaganda that lies about everything he mentioned so you can say "everything you said is not true!  Liberty forever!"


No.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 18:43
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Hey, so...why isn't anyone answering rogerthat?  Wink


Because most of us aren't in a discussion with him so we are not reading his quote battle?

Translation: because you can't deal with what he's saying....


If he wants to direct something at me, he can. Otherwise, I'm not going to bother read a back and forth by him and Ambient Hurricanes for two pages.

Coming from someone who ignores points made in direct conversation, glass houses and all that you know?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 20:02
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

  And besides wealth, is it a perfect society?

Far from it - but what on this earth is?

See, this is why non-Libertarians tend to treat Libertarians like you're crazy.  You complain about that, but you need to understand why it is.  Because it seems like you expect our theories to work PERFECTLY, but then you admit that your theories have never been put into practice, nor do you expect them to work perfectly.  So why is it that you have to completely break our system of government and wreak havoc on the economy all for the sake of an unproven theory that you know won't work perfectly?  Surely there is a way that we can make progress a little bit at a time without causing so much damage along the way?

I would rather you do not include me in saying that non libertarians consider libertarians crazy.  I think the system had its advantages with respect to America as it was.  I am not sure how it would work out today with several giant-sized business houses with lots of lobbying power.   But again I cannot judge that first hand.  I find some aspects of libertarianism extremely disagreeable but that's because it's an ideology (and I am not a believer in any kind of ideology) and it is no more flawed in that sense than Marxism or any other such social or economic ideology.  Maintaining an ideological position necessarily involves rigidity.  And my view is rigidity is generally bad in the 21st century world, where flexibility is required to deal with rapid and drastic changes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2013 at 22:54
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


I would rather you do not include me in saying that non libertarians consider libertarians crazy.  I think the system had its advantages with respect to America as it was.  I am not sure how it would work out today with several giant-sized business houses with lots of lobbying power.   But again I cannot judge that first hand.  I find some aspects of libertarianism extremely disagreeable but that's because it's an ideology (and I am not a believer in any kind of ideology) and it is no more flawed in that sense than Marxism or any other such social or economic ideology.  Maintaining an ideological position necessarily involves rigidity.  And my view is rigidity is generally bad in the 21st century world, where flexibility is required to deal with rapid and drastic changes.  
 
 
You sound like you may have read some R A Wilson.
 
When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases" -- Robert Anton Wilson.
 
 
Cool
 
 
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2013 at 09:12
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


I would rather you do not include me in saying that non libertarians consider libertarians crazy.  I think the system had its advantages with respect to America as it was.  I am not sure how it would work out today with several giant-sized business houses with lots of lobbying power.   But again I cannot judge that first hand.  I find some aspects of libertarianism extremely disagreeable but that's because it's an ideology (and I am not a believer in any kind of ideology) and it is no more flawed in that sense than Marxism or any other such social or economic ideology.  Maintaining an ideological position necessarily involves rigidity.  And my view is rigidity is generally bad in the 21st century world, where flexibility is required to deal with rapid and drastic changes.  
 
 
You sound like you may have read some R A Wilson.
 
When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases" -- Robert Anton Wilson.
 
 
Cool
 
 

I haven't but that kind of sums up why I am wary of dogma.  Besides, as a trained accountant, I am skeptical about anything and everything and that includes ideology.  I cannot completely believe in the truth or validity of something till it's signed, sealed and delivered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2013 at 16:48
Wow 206 new posts

Im actually glad someone brought up libertarians wanting to believe in Utopia and how things will perfectly...because the irony is (while obviously any person(s) can fall to that) I've generally heard libertarians say markets are better or preferred, but not utopia. In fact they often have zero problem admitting their beliefs are not utopia (probably because we are not perfect)
It's big government folk who try their damdest to keep the "good times" rolling. THEY say we can eliminate recessions, we can smoothen the economic cycle, back in the 20s we had a "permanent new plateau" in the 90s it was the new boom economy, in the 2000s the housing bubble will never end! We can fix every ill, we can fix society, we can fix the natural flaws in humanity. Well, it can get quite grandiose but yeah...

Point is I've noticed libertarians tend to be "gloomy" but realistic. To sum it up real short: The good times CANT roll on forever, not everyone can "win" (however you define it) and no system where people are involved will be utopia.
I admit, many libertarians do say this or come across that way, but well, no one is perfectLOL Many seem realistic about us not getting a utopia.

Big Government tries to remedy these things...and often leave econ and try to fix our social/moral/personal ills.
It may not be said but isn't the point? That we CAN achieve utopia? Fascism was after all opposed to markets as well as communism. Fascism was scientific, it would end all that nasty class warfare, end the wild madness of markets, end inefficiency as we know it.
Communism was utopia, was it not? Sure we never had true communism but perhaps there are reasons for this?

Nothing will be utopia, and regardless of belief, I respect those who say that. It's people, regardless of belief, that claim the plan to make utopia that worry me!




Edited by JJLehto - July 17 2013 at 16:53
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2013 at 20:22
^^^  That ultimately depends on which way you look at it.  Try telling 500 million people living well below $1 a day that hence forth the govt will be run as per libertarian principles and hence nothing can be done about their lot while the elite can comfortably increase their wealth through speculative investments without adding anything to the gross output of the economy.  It is also utopia to expect such a system would sustain in perpetuity anywhere but in the most advanced and prosperous economies. Perhaps you don't realise it because you are a convert.  Whether or not it may be unrealistic to expect that nobody in the planet should be left to starve, I can certainly understand the humanitarian values that people desire to uphold in securing welfare for the poor and can empathise with that even if it may be a lost cause.  

It may be simply a question of libertarians more biased towards the economic spectrum and communists more towards the social and political spectrum.   America has never seen a revolution so there is no great social upheaval that could threaten a libertarian economy (if it were one, that is).  That is not the case in many other countries.  As a non ideologue, I don't see the big difference in the rationality score between communism and libertarianism or other such ideologies.  They are all impractical in their own ways.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 09:06
"All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns."
- Bruce Lee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 09:22
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^  That ultimately depends on which way you look at it.  Try telling 500 million people living well below $1 a day that hence forth the govt will be run as per libertarian principles and hence nothing can be done about their lot while the elite can comfortably increase their wealth through speculative investments without adding anything to the gross output of the economy.  
Oh don't worry, some wealthy patron will feed them, they feed their horses all the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 09:46
[QUOTE=dtguitarfan]"All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns."
- Bruce Lee [/QUOT

"The truth that is outside all fixed patterns is not the ultimate truth"
                                                                                                                      Grasshopper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 09:51
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

"All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns."
- Bruce Lee


Deep. Nothing like a meaningless quote from a famous person.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 09:53
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

"All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns."- Bruce Lee

Deep. Nothing like a meaningless quote from a famous person.
It's probably true in martial arts
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