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dtguitarfan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 15:37
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I would say to those who falter, "It's my job to help them out."

You have to stop attacking straw men at some point.

Have you seen any statistics on poverty these days?

Good luck with that.  Let me know how it all works out for you.

In the meantime, those of us with sense who see that the Kochs could feed the entire planet are going to fix this for you.  You can thank us later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 15:42
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I would say to those who falter, "It's my job to help them out."

You have to stop attacking straw men at some point.

Have you seen any statistics on poverty these days?

Good luck with that.  Let me know how it all works out for you.

In the meantime, those of us with sense who see that the Kochs could feed the entire planet are going to fix this for you.  You can thank us later.


So instead of helping people I should bitch about how much money somebody else makes in the hopes that it can be taken from them and funneled through an incredibly inefficient bureaucratic channel to pay for war and political kickbacks before finally finding its way into a welfare program where it will eventually leak to someone who needs the help if the program isn't actually just a veiled form a political/corporate welfare? Oh okay.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 15:53
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I would say to those who falter, "It's my job to help them out."

You have to stop attacking straw men at some point.

Have you seen any statistics on poverty these days?

Good luck with that.  Let me know how it all works out for you.

In the meantime, those of us with sense who see that the Kochs could feed the entire planet are going to fix this for you.  You can thank us later.


So instead of helping people I should bitch about how much money somebody else makes in the hopes that it can be taken from them and funneled through an incredibly inefficient bureaucratic channel to pay for war and political kickbacks before finally finding its way into a welfare program where it will eventually leak to someone who needs the help if the program isn't actually just a veiled form a political/corporate welfare? Oh okay.

We're already in political/corporate warfare.  And the corporations are winning.  Now it's time to fight back.  But you'd rather the government lie down and die so we can bow to our new masters, the Kochs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 15:57
As long as we're making largely inaccurate statements, you evidently care more about your political ideology then actually helping people, where you want some nebulous governmental structure to help people for you.

Somehow that' not callous, but my statements were. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 16:23
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I would say to those who falter, "It's my job to help them out."

You have to stop attacking straw men at some point.

Have you seen any statistics on poverty these days?

Good luck with that.  Let me know how it all works out for you.

In the meantime, those of us with sense who see that the Kochs could feed the entire planet are going to fix this for you.  You can thank us later.


Say Geoff, could you show me just one government that has fed the entire planet?  Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 16:32
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


We're already in political/corporate warfare.  And the corporations are winning. 


They're largely on the same team. 

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Now it's time to fight back.


How?  General Soros?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 16:44
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 

The colonies had achieved quite a bit of order and prosperity, though.  They were basically self-governing and had flourishing local economies.
So you agree with The T that Libertarianism is only recommendable for societies which have already achieved a certain level of economy and prosperity.


It depends upon the situation.  I hold to libertarianism on principle and not merely on pragmatic grounds, so I would recommend it to any society; however, I would not advocate the sudden imposition of libertarianism on any society, change needs to be gradual.  Sometimes drastic things have to be done (for example I would argue that the US needs to go through another depression in order to really fix their system) but in general gradual change is more advisable.  The answer to your question would depend on many other factors.  Is the economy locally based or based in big business?  Is there a lot of violence going on?  What is the current state of the government?  Has the government created monopolies that could take decades to collapse?  There's a lot more to it than how rich and prosperous the country is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 17:15
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


We're already in political/corporate warfare.  And the corporations are winning. 


They're largely on the same team. 

I'm aware of that, which is why I hate the Republican party.  The Democrats weren't much better for a while, but many of them woke up.

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

As long as we're making largely inaccurate statements, you evidently care more about your political ideology then actually helping people, where you want some nebulous governmental structure to help people for you.

Somehow that' not callous, but my statements were. 

You have no idea who I am.  You have no idea what kinds of extracurricular activities I'm involved in.  But here's a thought for you - I have been involved in helping my community.  And I could do a whole lot more if it weren't for the fact that I'm an indentured servant who's going to be paying back his damn student loans for the next few decades.

Class warfare DOES exist.  And the war is being won by the rich.  So let's just get rid of the only agency that can possibly give us little people a chance, eh?  Let's just lie down and die for them so they can walk all over our dead bodies, huh?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 17:21
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


We're already in political/corporate warfare.  And the corporations are winning. 


They're largely on the same team. 

I'm aware of that, which is why I hate the Republican party.  The Democrats weren't much better for a while, but many of them woke up.


Pour money on me and I'd wake up too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 17:40
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


We're already in political/corporate warfare.  And the corporations are winning. 


They're largely on the same team. 

I'm aware of that, which is why I hate the Republican party.  The Democrats weren't much better for a while, but many of them woke up.


Pour money on me and I'd wake up too.

Oh yeah, 'cuz everyone knows it's the Democrats who are raking in all the dough from the rich donors, not the Republic....oh wait.

Tell me again why it is you're against the idea of campaigns being financed by taxes and keeping the big donations out of it?

Also, I'd like to request that you stay true to your principles.  You're against redistribution, eh?  Well then I must request you shut down your circulatory system, as it is constantly redistributing oxygen and nutrients to all the cells in your body.  Also, you're against regulation, eh?  Well, then I must demand you shut down your immune system as well as your nervous system.

Enough with the individualism.  Yeah, we're individuals.  Like cells in a body.  And what happens when one small group of cells starts grabbing up all the nutrients and refusing to share with the rest of the body?  It's called cancer.  But oh no, it would be wrong to do anything to fight cancer, eh?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 17:51
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


We're already in political/corporate warfare.  And the corporations are winning. 


They're largely on the same team. 

I'm aware of that, which is why I hate the Republican party.  The Democrats weren't much better for a while, but many of them woke up.


Pour money on me and I'd wake up too.

Oh yeah, 'cuz everyone knows it's the Democrats who are raking in all the dough from the rich donors, not the Republic....oh wait.

Tell me again why it is you're against the idea of campaigns being financed by taxes and keeping the big donations out of it?


Did I tell you a first time?  Confused


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also, I'd like to request that you stay true to your principles.  You're against redistribution, eh?  Well then I must request you shut down your circulatory system, as it is constantly redistributing oxygen and nutrients to all the cells in your body.  Also, you're against regulation, eh?  Well, then I must demand you shut down your immune system as well as your nervous system.


Oh dear.  Well, that wouldn't be very good for me, now would it?  Ouch


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Enough with the individualism.  Yeah, we're individuals.  Like cells in a body.  And what happens when one small group of cells starts grabbing up all the nutrients and refusing to share with the rest of the body?  It's called cancer.  But oh no, it would be wrong to do anything to fight cancer, eh?


Small group of cells?  So...like...not individuals.  A group.  Got it.


Edited by Epignosis - July 18 2013 at 17:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 17:53

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 19:08
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

As long as we're making largely inaccurate statements, you evidently care more about your political ideology then actually helping people, where you want some nebulous governmental structure to help people for you.

Somehow that' not callous, but my statements were. 

You have no idea who I am.  You have no idea what kinds of extracurricular activities I'm involved in.  But here's a thought for you - I have been involved in helping my community.  And I could do a whole lot more if it weren't for the fact that I'm an indentured servant who's going to be paying back his damn student loans for the next few decades.

Class warfare DOES exist.  And the war is being won by the rich.  So let's just get rid of the only agency that can possibly give us little people a chance, eh?  Let's just lie down and die for them so they can walk all over our dead bodies, huh?


Yeah. I kinda said already that my statement was inaccurate. But then you shouldn't go around dissuading people from personal action. Nor should you make the absurd statements about Libertarians that you did.

Straw men. Straw men. Let me know when you want to have a real discussion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:02
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

As long as we're making largely inaccurate statements, you evidently care more about your political ideology then actually helping people, where you want some nebulous governmental structure to help people for you.

Somehow that' not callous, but my statements were. 

You have no idea who I am.  You have no idea what kinds of extracurricular activities I'm involved in.  But here's a thought for you - I have been involved in helping my community.  And I could do a whole lot more if it weren't for the fact that I'm an indentured servant who's going to be paying back his damn student loans for the next few decades.

Class warfare DOES exist.  And the war is being won by the rich.  So let's just get rid of the only agency that can possibly give us little people a chance, eh?  Let's just lie down and die for them so they can walk all over our dead bodies, huh?


Yeah. I kinda said already that my statement was inaccurate. But then you shouldn't go around dissuading people from personal action. Nor should you make the absurd statements about Libertarians that you did.

Straw men. Straw men. Let me know when you want to have a real discussion.

Let me know when you're ready to give up rigid idealism and hatred for any kind of governmental action whatsoever and we can talk.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:12
You keep coming in here to talk to us.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:14
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^  That ultimately depends on which way you look at it.  Try telling 500 million people living well below $1 a day that hence forth the govt will be run as per libertarian principles and hence nothing can be done about their lot while the elite can comfortably increase their wealth through speculative investments without adding anything to the gross output of the economy.  

Oh don't worry, some wealthy patron will feed them, they feed their horses all the same.
Never would I recommend a poverty stricken country to move to a libertarian shstem while it is still run by oligarchs. I don't think libertarianism can exist in countries that haven't achieved some order and prosperity first. No studies or stats, just my opinion based on my analysis.
But Libertarianism was the policy in the early US, before a deeply woven society had stabilized and wealth flourished, just a policy for settler pioneers without (necessarily) previous wealth. I guess that some of you attribute the economical success of many of those pioneers to the fact that the country was ruled under rather Libertarian policies. So now saying that Libertarianism is only fit for societies with a certain level of wealth seems a bit contradictory?

Because you could say there is equilibrium in social order when the country is still very young and most of it is unexplored.   Um, like when a newly developed planned city is occupied by the public, the first generation is anxious to maintain some decorum and hygiene, so daily life is orderly.  As it gets crowded and the demographic homogeneity is lost, newer entrants don't care about all that.  They only came because they could get reasonably sized dwelling units for an affordable price.   I am talking, as it were, about that part of Mumbai that I live in.  I think this also indirectly addresses why immigration is a pain point in advanced societies.   But once you have established that this is Rome and this is what we the Romans do, it is easier to experiment with deregulation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:33
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 
And what if the "big shark" gains dominance in the market?  If people like their product or service better, if they can offer quality at low prices, then doesn't their dominance just reflect how well they serve their customers?  Can a monopoly be good?  


These kinds of "monopolies" don't last, either; contrary to the assertion that libertarians think "greed is good," we don't; we merely recognize the existence of greed, and think that its rewards and consequences will be borne my any who exhibit it.  The greedy corporation gains control of the market in the first place by lowering prices and offering a quality product/service, and the same greed leads it to raise prices and lower quality once it reaches the top of the market, opening the door for competitors to topple it.  No "perfect" competition, but no "robber barons" either.

This is exactly what I think would happen and I just think the 'eventuality' takes too long to materialize.  And coming to MS...
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 

It would be a long time before Apple could make a dent in emerging markets.   The US has always had Apple fans and people working in creative industries prefer Macs (but that is a niche requirement).  And I suspect the only reason people would still buy a Mac is because Mac compatible MS Office packages are also available.  So even if Mac preys into their OS business, replacing Office could take a very long time.  Nothing short of an event that would completely kill the PC market.   By which time, we might have had three decades of total MS domination.  That might not be a long time in history but that is almost the entire working life of a person.   I guess people who started working in the 90s won't even know a non MS world.  The pace of change in that regard is very slow when you compare it to the speed at which IT has generally been evolving for the last two decades.  And that is the price we have to pay for monopoly.   


By the way, none of this is to say that in a licensed market instead of a free one,  there would not be monopoly.  We Indians experienced Licence Raj in its full glory and would not recommend it to anyone as it created seller's markets everywhere.    I want entry into a market to be unfettered.  I just want restrictions on marketshare or hostile takeovers.    Let the small firm compete with the shark if they want to and let them only sell out on their free will.  
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Sorry, I just don't see the problem.  I read the article.  Distributors freely signed a contract with Yash Raj agreeing to show both films.  In fact, the article noted that there were also distributors who only showed one.  In every major city but one listed in the chart at the end of the article, SoS was still available for viewing.  There's no monopoly; one company is doing better than the other, that is all.  If there were more demand for the other film, distributors would have showed it on more screens.  


Yes, SoS was still available for viewing but the block deal was done to deny it the best screens.  Ok, you have to understand a little more of Bollywood dynamics for this.  Ek Tha Tiger was a Salman Khan film and usually these dumb and dumber Salman starring action films are assured blockbusters.  By contrast, JTJH was a film with a dated storyline and may not have found as many takers had it not been for the block deal.  Yes, there's nothing legally wrong there but it is a monopolistic practice.  Each film ought to stand on its own in the market, whereas Yashraj has used their clout to push both films on distributors.  You cannot tie the right to distribute the film with the obligation to another, that is just blackmail.  I will choose if I want to buy either of Civic or Accord.  It's none of Honda's business to force me to buy both or none at all.  I mean, that actually goes against the principle of choice and monopolies often succeed in extracting agreements that cramp the choice of their suppliers or customers.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 21:09
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Let me know when you're ready to give up rigid idealism and hatred for any kind of governmental action whatsoever and we can talk.



Neither of those things are true. Though I'm indifferent to whether we talk or not at this point.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 05:22
Hey, how funny, this is exactly what I've been trying to get across to the Libertarians in this thread.

Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.

Oooh, also, here's how Ayn Rand's philosophy may have killed Sears.
FTA:
Quote

First, Lampert broke the company into over 30 individual units, each with its own management, and each measured separately for profit and loss. Acting in their individual self-interest, they would be forced to compete with each other and thereby generate higher profits.

What actually happened is that units began to behave something like the cutthroat city-states of Italy around the time Machiavelli was penning his guide to rule-by-selfishness. As Mina Kimes has reported in Bloomberg Businessweek, they went to war with each other.

It got crazy. Executives started undermining other units because they knew their bonuses were tied to individual unit performance. They began to focus solely on the economic performance of their unit at the expense of the overall Sears brand.  One unit, Kenmore, started selling the products of other companies and placed them more prominently that Sears’ own products. Units competed for ad space in Sears’ circulars, and since the unit with the most money got the most ad space, one Mother’s Day circular ended up being released featuring a mini bike for boys on its cover. Units were no longer incentivized to make sacrifices, like offering discounts, to get shoppers into the store.

Sears became a miserable place to work, rife with infighting and screaming matches. Employees focused solely on making money in their own unit ceased to have any loyalty the company or stake in its survival. Eddie Lampert taunted employees by posting under a fake name on the company’s internal social network.

What Lampert failed to see is that humans actually have a natural inclination to work for the mutual benefit of an organization. They like to cooperate and collaborate, and they often work more productively when they have shared goals.  Take all of that away and you create a company that will destroy itself.



Queue the "he's not really a Libertarian" response in 3...2...


Edited by dtguitarfan - July 19 2013 at 05:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 05:33
Cue Geek
What?
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