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Gerinski 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5091
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 Posted: July 23 2013 at 15:26 |
 Equality 7-2521 wrote:
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I give up  Sorry for the gay part, that was bad taste and possibly sexist so I apologize. Ah, incidentally I wouldn't like to live in a place where all beaches are privately owned, or where owners of any place (those with most money) decide everything what I can and can't do everywhere I go where is not my property. It is likely that I would stay home for much time 
Sorry I'm not sure about your stance regarding laws and regulations, since some Libertarians seem in favour of leaving them pretty much the same as they are while other argue for drastically reducing them (the extreme being just 'don't kill, don't steal and don't attack other people'). By your replies to the first points ('what does constitute aggression?') I suspect that you are one of those who would leave them pretty much as they are (since your replies are mostly 'nothing changes here' meaning that whether something constitutes aggression or not would be determined by the same laws as it is now).
If we left the choice of how heavy a lorry can be to those who build trucks and roads, it is highly likely that they would prefer bigger lorries to maximize their profit per trip. Needless to say that this would add danger to your driving your family around. Industrial lobbies are pushing for years in Europe to increase the maximum size and weight of lorries (which btw are already smaller than in the US, we have in general narrower and busier roads) and many tests have been done, but the EU government so far has (thankfully) considered that the increase in accident risk and severity is not acceptable.
Really, you don't need to reply if you don't want to, something which appeared 100% evident to me is utterly nonsense to you, so our views are clearly too far apart for any discussion to produce any meaningful progress.
I'd again suggest you Libertarians to fight for permission to start an experimental Libertarian state somewhere, go and try, but before that has been done don't put the whole US in risk by arguing to turn it into a Libertarian state. Please, too much of the world depends on You the US, don't make that irresponsibility. If an experimental state works, then let's talk again about a next step.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 16:37 |
Gerinski wrote:
Sorry for the gay part, that was bad taste and possibly sexist so I apologize. Ah, incidentally I wouldn't like to live in a place where all beaches are privately owned, or where owners of any place (those with most money) decide everything what I can and can't do everywhere I go where is not my property. It is likely that I would stay home for much time |
You know private/public does not mean restricted access / free access right? You probably spend a good deal of your time on private land as it.
Sorry I'm not sure about your stance regarding laws and regulations, since some Libertarians seem in favour of leaving them pretty much the same as they are while other argue for drastically reducing them (the extreme being just 'don't kill, don't steal and don't attack other people'). By your replies to the first points ('what does constitute aggression?') I suspect that you are one of those who would leave them pretty much as they are (since your replies are mostly 'nothing changes here' meaning that whether something constitutes aggression or not would be determined by the same laws as it is now). |
No. I would change a lot. But I'm saying that for the purposes of your examples, the fundamental principles or way things are done so to speak does not change.
If we left the choice of how heavy a lorry can be to those who build trucks and roads, it is highly likely that they would prefer bigger lorries to maximize their profit per trip. Needless to say that this would add danger to your driving your family around. Industrial lobbies are pushing for years in Europe to increase the maximum size and weight of lorries (which btw are already smaller than in the US, we have in general narrower and busier roads) and many tests have been done, but the EU government so far has (thankfully) considered that the increase in accident risk and severity is not acceptable. |
How so? Roads that are death traps or heavily congested would tend to make for bad business. Teamsters unions and the megacompanies that ship freight across the country through them have oodles of political pull. I don't necessarily trust road decisions being made by a centralized government subject to their sway.
Really, you don't need to reply if you don't want to, something which appeared 100% evident to me is utterly nonsense to you, so our views are clearly too far apart for any discussion to produce any meaningful progress. |
That's certainly not true unless both of us are unwilling to accept new evidence and arguments.
I'd again suggest you Libertarians to fight for permission to start an experimental Libertarian state somewhere, go and try, but before that has been done don't put the whole US in risk by arguing to turn it into a Libertarian state. Please, too much of the world depends on You the US, don't make that irresponsibility. If an experimental state works, then let's talk again about a next step. |
The stakes are far too high for that. I'm not content with watching my country destroy lives while a microexperiment comes into fruition.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5091
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 17:18 |
My arguments do not convince you so I give up, it's fine, I'm not a smart enough arguer. Again in my view they are evident but I reckon they are not to you. Peace to the world.
Btw, there are more than 2 people building roads and lorries, it's hard to think that they will all agree by pure chance, unless they set up some 'common governing body' who sets the rules for all of them to follow.
Edited by Gerinski - July 23 2013 at 17:30
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5091
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 17:25 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The stakes are far too high for that. I'm not content with watching my country destroy lives while a microexperiment comes into fruition.
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Btw, why do you talk about 'your country' if you have a Libertarian mind? if everybody is free to manage their own lives making agreements with one another and without needing a common overhead government, why do you need a concept of 'country'? it's just families and individuals interacting with each other, isn't it?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 17:41 |
Gerinski wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The stakes are far too high for that. I'm not content with watching my country destroy lives while a microexperiment comes into fruition.
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Btw, why do you talk about 'your country' if you have a Libertarian mind? if everybody is free to manage their own lives making agreements with one another and without needing a common overhead government, why do you need a concept of 'country'? it's just families and individuals interacting with each other, isn't it? |
That ignores things like culture and geographical area. I have a country that I recognize, though it is not the US and I do not recognize the government.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 17:42 |
Gerinski wrote:
My arguments do not convince you so I give up, it's fine, I'm not a smart enough arguer. Again in my view they are evident but I reckon they are not to you. Peace to the world.
Btw, there are more than 2 people building roads and lorries, it's hard to think that they will all agree by pure chance, unless they set up some 'common governing body' who sets the rules for all of them to follow. |
They don't need to all agree, but these things do not happen by pure chance. There's good economic reasons for cooperation and standardization as has happened in many technological and financial fields.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5091
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 18:23 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
That ignores things like culture and geographical area. I have a country that I recognize, though it is not the US and I do not recognize the government.
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Too bad some of your neighbours' perception of what is it that they recognize as 'their country' may be different from yours. We can't always expect the majority to think the way we do, too bad but a fact anyway.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 18:29 |
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Who said that they needed to think the same way?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 18:37 |
Just out of curiosity, what country do you recognize?
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 20:02 |
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A solid geographical area around Philly would be what I would call my country. Too far away from that and the culture is too different and the lands too unfamiliar for me to really have any connection to them more than any other part of the world.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Second Life Syndrome
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 20 2012
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 361
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 20:25 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
A solid geographical area around Philly would be what I would call my country. Too far away from that and the culture is too different and the lands too unfamiliar for me to really have any connection to them more than any other part of the world.
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theprogmind.com
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 20:37 |
I wonder if anyone could ever call Florida "his country", even those who live here... 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 20:53 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
How so? Roads that are death traps or heavily congested would tend to make for bad business. Teamsters unions and the megacompanies that ship freight across the country through them have oodles of political pull. I don't necessarily trust road decisions being made by a centralized government subject to their sway.
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I can corroborate what Gerinski said here. I have spoken to people in my company who sell heavy trucks abroad and according to them, trucks anywhere and everywhere can be overloaded and there is constant pressure to increase their payload (or capacity to carry stuff). But this is also not feasible without first improving the roads since all the load is borne by the wheels and in turn by the road surface. That is why many big cities have restrictions on what roads and at what times trucks of what payload can use to enter and exit the city. It may not be a very libertarian idea but if any trucks of any payload could enter the city at any time they choose, every road would have to be built to the best possible quality and that is just extremely uneconomical at the end of the day. These restrictions have the additional benefit of diverting trucks away from the business district during rush hour (usually) and routing goods through lighter goods vans and pickups. As long as businesses organise themselves in oligopolistic cartels or associations, a libertarian system of governance would likely be misused wantonly by them. Ergo, your dream govt can only work when everybody is converted to libertarianism. And in that sense, it is, as I already observed, like every other ideology. What I do respect about libertarianism is that libertarians seek to persuade people to their point of view rather than coercing them to join their side. That is certainly a noble intention but that is also going to make the proliferation of this ideology pretty tough.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 21:44 |
rogerthat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
How so? Roads that are death traps or heavily congested would tend to make for bad business. Teamsters unions and the megacompanies that ship freight across the country through them have oodles of political pull. I don't necessarily trust road decisions being made by a centralized government subject to their sway.
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I can corroborate what Gerinski said here. I have spoken to people in my company who sell heavy trucks abroad and according to them, trucks anywhere and everywhere can be overloaded and there is constant pressure to increase their payload (or capacity to carry stuff). But this is also not feasible without first improving the roads since all the load is borne by the wheels and in turn by the road surface. That is why many big cities have restrictions on what roads and at what times trucks of what payload can use to enter and exit the city. It may not be a very libertarian idea but if any trucks of any payload could enter the city at any time they choose, every road would have to be built to the best possible quality and that is just extremely uneconomical at the end of the day. These restrictions have the additional benefit of diverting trucks away from the business district during rush hour (usually) and routing goods through lighter goods vans and pickups. As long as businesses organise themselves in oligopolistic cartels or associations, a libertarian system of governance would likely be misused wantonly by them. Ergo, your dream govt can only work when everybody is converted to libertarianism. And in that sense, it is, as I already observed, like every other ideology. What I do respect about libertarianism is that libertarians seek to persuade people to their point of view rather than coercing them to join their side. That is certainly a noble intention but that is also going to make the proliferation of this ideology pretty tough.
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I'm just not understanding why big cities wouldn't continue to have such restrictions? I don't see you contradicting anything I'm saying. I just see some ifs that you're criticizing.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 21:49 |
Second Life Syndrome wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
A solid geographical area around Philly would be what I would call my country. Too far away from that and the culture is too different and the lands too unfamiliar for me to really have any connection to them more than any other part of the world.
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If you give anyone the choice of disassociating themselves with Ohio, could you really blame them for doing so? Seriously though. Yeah. It's a lot different. I've never been there. I have no idea what Ohio looks like. I know nothing about the wildlife, agriculture, economy. The only thing I know is that the Browns are terrible. You have different expression. You have a different accent. It seems absurd to call it my country anymore than it would be to call South Africa my country.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Second Life Syndrome
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 20 2012
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 361
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Posted: July 23 2013 at 23:15 |
*Looks around awkwardly* It was a joke, my friend. I'm just making fun of my state because it's so easy to do. I would never call PA my country because, well, Steelers fans are jerks!  I'm not a sports fan, so I don't care about the Browns, but they do suck. Though, I doubt we have different accents. I know a ton of people from your part of PA that speak in the same Midwest accent that I do.
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theprogmind.com
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5091
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Posted: July 24 2013 at 05:51 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Who said that they needed to think the same way?
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Well I guess you can't have a different country for each family. If you recognize Philly and surroundings as your country, some of your neighbours recognize the whole of Pennsylvania, others the whole of the North-East, some the whole of the US and some just their small block, you're going to have a problem, not all of you will be pleased with whatever definition of your country will be finally applied. How will you decide which territory constitutes your country? As a Libertarian I don't think that you will coerce your neighbours to abide by your preferred definition over theirs.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 24 2013 at 06:37 |
Second Life Syndrome wrote:
*Looks around awkwardly* It was a joke, my friend. I'm just making fun of my state because it's so easy to do. I would never call PA my country because, well, Steelers fans are jerks! I'm not a sports fan, so I don't care about the Browns, but they do suck. Though, I doubt we have different accents. I know a ton of people from your part of PA that speak in the same Midwest accent that I do. |
I made a joke too my friend. Really? I've never heard anyone from the area talk like a Ohiooooian except those from Ohio or other weird states in that middle part that I assume are indistinguishable from Ohio.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: July 24 2013 at 06:38 |
Gerinski wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Who said that they needed to think the same way?
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Well I guess you can't have a different country for each family. If you recognize Philly and surroundings as your country, some of your neighbours recognize the whole of Pennsylvania, others the whole of the North-East, some the whole of the US and some just their small block, you're going to have a problem, not all of you will be pleased with whatever definition of your country will be finally applied. How will you decide which territory constitutes your country? As a Libertarian I don't think that you will coerce your neighbours to abide by your preferred definition over theirs. |
Why does such a thing need to be decided? I find it to be a cultural thing that evolves on it own.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5091
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Posted: July 24 2013 at 07:12 |
 perhaps your meaning of country is not what I had in mind. So in your view, your neighbour's country does not necessarily need to be the same as yours. It's just a personal choice, something like 'what I feel my fatherland is, without any practical meaning beyond my own perception. Perhaps just what I would fight for in case needed, perhaps just my family, perhaps my neighbourhood, perhaps the people from the town 100 miles away, something completely subjective and dependant on the context'. Is that what you mean by 'country'?
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