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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Padraic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: October 17 2013 at 09:28
Originally posted by horsewithteeth11

I think to the general public, both sides are going to come off looking a bit worse for the wear because of the lack of willing to compromise. Outside of a few, that was fairly common for both R's and D's.

I suppose for the truly uninformed this will be the case.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2013 at 14:31
Originally posted by Padraic

Originally posted by JJLehto


Boy I'm getting tired of this
 

So are the Chinese.
LOL
Ultimate joke is on them, sometime in the kinda nearish future (idk 2-3 decades/another global crisis at tops?) China will be the hegemon and they can deal with all our problems!
 
 
Yeah David, it's been near universal that the GOP is at fault, with the dems getting either some flak to not even being thought of. Needless to say both have blame but yeah, regardless Republicans will take the axe for this, and even Republican friends I have have said "yeah this is their (GOP) fault" so it does not look good. To be fair, I'm not saying this is right, or fair or anything like that, just they really f**ked up (yet again) as pretty much everyone said "Obama and Dems will win if this happens, GOP will lose big" so they really shouldn't have played the game...esp over defunding obamacare which was not gunna happen.
 
Like any movement, they benefited from the limited gov wave but then rode it a little too hard...and now the cause is really damned for a while. So yeah, same sh*t different day: GOP screwed up, they've handed their mortal enemies another few years of power, hell maybe another White House. I'd not wanna even see the name of anyone involved with this mess in 2016 (ie Rand Paul, Ted Cruz)
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote horsewithteeth11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2013 at 20:12
I don't think it's necessarily gone that far. We have the next several months for more fun stuff about the ACA and immigration reform. So I think it depends on how the GOP handles it. Or rather, which side of the GOP handles it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2013 at 11:32
Which given recent years...probably means the GOP will screw it all up horribly.
Really for years now they've been in a pretty pathetic position IMO, and all the people who at the very start said the Tea Party would be a negative force turned out to be right. Just split the GOP and kinda hurt libertarianism in the process, double whammy!
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:46
6 Absurd Alcohol Myths Believed During Prohibition.

I wonder what a corresponding list will look like in 20 years for Marijuana.

1) Pot's a gateway drug.
2) Pot's as addictive as cigarettes
3) Pot causes psychosis
4) Weed breeds a crime culture
5) Supply side laws reduce supply of weed
6) Enforcement is cheaper than the societal cost due to pot use.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 14:49
Luckily I believe #3 is already ridiculed as 1950's lolstorms
Hopefully the rest will indeed fall.  
 
So, as the old timers are slowly dying off, and people just slowly start accepting things, turns out for the first time ever a majority of Americans favor legalizing the sticky icky
 
 
Funny article, though IMO if you get a good enough booze it could deform babies by smelling it...at least the stuff I concoct in my basement bathtub brewery willClown
 


Edited by JJLehto - October 24 2013 at 14:52
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2013 at 10:47
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2013 at 13:15
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Rob, I think you may like this read: In School "Boys are treated like defective girls."
 
All seems good to me personally!
 
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2013 at 07:50
Did you know you can't embed tweets here?


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - November 05 2013 at 07:51
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2013 at 07:33
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:19
The rich and the poor are not fixed categories. One can be rich and become poor (rarely happens but it can) and one can be poor and get rich (it sadly also doesn't happen as often anymore). Do we then expect people to switch moral character just with a change of fortunes?

Anyway, I sadly agree that wealth these days is revered and adored and that the wealthy are not "makers" or "job creators". 

The poor are not moral examples just for being poor though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2013 at 19:31
In trying to crucify Rand, the author ends up with a rather over simplified piece himself.  But maybe that is necessary to get the point across to people who actually seem to believe running a hedge fund is more laudable than daring to save the lives of lepers (yeah, why waste your time when there are so many of them worthless diseased souls, right?) just as Rand, by accident or design, served to get the point across that communism was not all that it was made out to be either.  I completely agree with Teo that morals have nothing to do with being rich or poor.  I did like this line from the article, though:   

"I would fear for the world if the empathetic, the intelligent, the compassionate, the fearless and the creative left us. We donít celebrate these virtues unless they somehow lead to monetary gain, but often they donít. "


It does seem like the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.  And since we have already lost faith in socialism, I don't know what the alternative is going to be this time.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2013 at 19:39
Oh dear, the Forbes article he quoted there is indeed terrible.  I would have been prepared to believe it was top notch satire if he had not declared himself a defender of capitalism using Ayn Rand's Objectivism.  To take just one badly misinformed and simplistic sentence from the article:

"It was for value received that your teachers worked day in and day out to instruct you."

Um, but what about the difference between teachers who just do their job and the ones who inspire you to learn?  Pl remember the latter don't have to do it at all and they do it out of passion.  It is dangerous to believe all our thoughts and actions are governed only by economic considerations, that all morals need only be derived by economics and that the things that don't concern with economics are redundant indefinables.  To argue it in these, er, Darwinian terms, our emotional intelligence is an evolutionary advantage.  It is what we derive strength from and further the human race with.  I am sorry but a lone, towering genius Ayn Rand living all by herself would be no match for the strength of a pride of lions and she would (would have) do well to be a little grateful to the hapless social pygmies who effectively insulate her from her very real physical limitations.  Far from ridiculing empathy, we should strive to embrace it in every walk of life.  Showing a little bit of understanding, which seems to be a rather difficult thing for some of these Rand fanboys, can go a long way in solving problems.


Edited by rogerthat - November 17 2013 at 19:45
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 14:56

That is a good point Teo, the cliche liberal lines pretty much assume a static, old stlye European society with these rigid classes. I used to fall into the same trap, I was such a fan of history I often failed to see the current day and society accurately.

 
Look, it's simple. In 2013 thing's have changed. The super wealthy are not really job creators, the "old days" libertarians long for just no longer exist. HOWEVER, the days that most liberals seem to long for, the 1950s and 60s also no longer exist.
Ya know, those glory days when the US was a manufacturing exporting country, with a robust private sector...one that made lots of jobs, good paying jobs.
 
It simply does not exist anymore. Again, I used to think of different ways, and support people who claimed, to bring those days back, but it just isn't so.
We all need to progress and embrace new (but not really) ideas such as those put out by the Post Keynesian school (New Economic Perspectives and Levy Institute)
 
Such as "pre distribution not redistribution"   just give up Democrats and accept even if you want, you can't tax those super rich b*****ds. So forget em, and work on making that pie bigger and boosting the 99.3% from the bottom up. Let the rice be rich, I'm so glad I no longer care. It's so much better feeling to want to find ways to help the most people possible, instead of raging over how to tax a few people.


Edited by JJLehto - November 19 2013 at 15:09
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 15:08
Seriously, I found the work of Irving Fisher who wrote during the Great Depression about private debt...his thoughts make more sense than anything I've ever heard and explain so many of the situations that defied, and still defy, good explanation. Wiki the name.  
It's been floating around since the 30s!! Not revived until quite recently. Shame since it makes sense of everything we've been living through.
 
As well as Hyman Minsky, a pretty obscure economist who pretty much predicted to the letter our current crisis 50 years early.
These liberal economists who's work has been ignored by the mainstream. Old ideas that work for our future, but Democrat supporters need to find this work, and then pull their head out of their ass and demand real change.


Edited by JJLehto - November 19 2013 at 15:09
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 15:25
If you are going to have taxes, it only makes sense for the currently rich to pay a little more.

Edited by The T - November 19 2013 at 15:27
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 15:30
Originally posted by The T

If you are going to have taxes, it only makes sense for the rich to pay a little more.
I support progressive taxation (even for that couple of year period when I was a semi Ron Paul supporting libertarian!) just stating the realistic fact that the real enemy of liberals, those super wealthy, will always get out of it. Not saying I like it, just reality. So I'd rather not focus on how to change that personally.
 
" We donít need no stinking taxes on the rich to increase incomes of the poor. Indeed, there is no accounting that allows you to use taxes to take income from the rich to give to the poor. (Despite what our rightwingers say, the IRS does not hold you up with a gunĖit debits your bank account.)"
 
"I am skeptical that weíll do much to reduce richness by raising taxes, anyway. In America, it doesnít work. The rich just get loopholes through Congress to exempt themselves. You can bet that the top 20,000 income earners in America will each get their own personalized exemption to any progressive tax hike"
 
The guy is pretty liberal and does have a very strong hate of income inequality, which Im much less concerned with, bent but he makes some great points.
 


Edited by JJLehto - November 19 2013 at 15:31
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 15:33
Good points.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 15:57
Originally posted by The T

If you are going to have taxes, it only makes sense for the currently rich to pay a little more.


Although I don't necessarily agree, I'm not going to really argue against the sentiment. I would say though that you have to be particularly careful about how you define rich. A doctor making $100,000 a year with $150,000 of student loan debt is not rich.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 16:09
^Correct. We could kind-of-agree that we are talking about the really wealthy who have assets and a combination of all wealth factors (investments, etc) that exceed, say (this is very arbitrary, and I know this is problematic), one million. I agree that a lawyer making 150,000 a year with 200,000 student loan debt is not rich (or happy probably, knowing the hell life of lawyers, but that is irrelevant here). 

And as I said, categories are not fixed. He who is poor right now might one day be rich (not that it happens so often though) and fall in the higher taxation bracket. 

I just  voiced a general sentiment. No specifics to come from me. Unless someone pays me for a really poorly-realized study
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