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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2014 at 23:17
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I think  those who write for tv or film drama understand politics or social conditions as well as anyone out there,


Really?  Really?

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Look....the bottom line is that any type of real libertarianism is a pipe dream. Ain't never gonna happen because The Powers That Be like things the way they are....period.


The improbability of the drastic reduction or abolition of the power of the state does not diminish the necessity of striving towards the same.  Just because reaching an ideal is improbable does not mean we should not pursue it, for we strive to form the real in the image of the ideal even though the ideal may never be fully realized.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2014 at 23:26
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I think  those who write for tv or film drama understand politics or social conditions as well as anyone out there,


Really?  Really?

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Look....the bottom line is that any type of real libertarianism is a pipe dream. Ain't never gonna happen because The Powers That Be like things the way they are....period.


The improbability of the drastic reduction or abolition of the power of the state does not diminish the necessity of striving towards the same.  Just because reaching an ideal is improbable does not mean we should not pursue it, for we strive to form the real in the image of the ideal even though the ideal may never be fully realized.
Really..? Yes...certainly as well as a 19 year old from Drury University or do you think they aren't educated in the same things the rest of us are?
Ermm
Strive all you want...it makes one feel better about themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2014 at 23:41
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I think  those who write for tv or film drama understand politics or social conditions as well as anyone out there,


Really?  Really?

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Look....the bottom line is that any type of real libertarianism is a pipe dream. Ain't never gonna happen because The Powers That Be like things the way they are....period.


The improbability of the drastic reduction or abolition of the power of the state does not diminish the necessity of striving towards the same.  Just because reaching an ideal is improbable does not mean we should not pursue it, for we strive to form the real in the image of the ideal even though the ideal may never be fully realized.
Really..? Yes...certainly as well as a 19 year old from Drury University or do you think they aren't educated in the same things the rest of us are?
Ermm
Strive all you want...it makes one feel better about themselves.
Smile


You would do well to check your assumptions at the door before having a discussion with me.  If you think you're debating with a know-nothing party-happy college student, you're in for a nasty surprise.

I have no idea how informed any particular screenwriter is about politics (probably some are informed and some not) but it makes no sense to formulate an argument based on a TV show and to appeal to the authority of a screenwriter whose political credentials you know absolutely nothing about.  At the very least the libertarians here have read about and considered these issues and pretty well know what they're talking about. 

The point isn't to feel better about yourself, the point is the pursuit of truth and freedom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 00:02
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I think  those who write for tv or film drama understand politics or social conditions as well as anyone out there,


Really?  Really?

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Look....the bottom line is that any type of real libertarianism is a pipe dream. Ain't never gonna happen because The Powers That Be like things the way they are....period.


The improbability of the drastic reduction or abolition of the power of the state does not diminish the necessity of striving towards the same.  Just because reaching an ideal is improbable does not mean we should not pursue it, for we strive to form the real in the image of the ideal even though the ideal may never be fully realized.
Really..? Yes...certainly as well as a 19 year old from Drury University or do you think they aren't educated in the same things the rest of us are?
Ermm
Strive all you want...it makes one feel better about themselves.
Smile


You would do well to check your assumptions at the door before having a discussion with me.  If you think you're debating with a know-nothing party-happy college student, you're in for a nasty surprise.

I have no idea how informed any particular screenwriter is about politics (probably some are informed and some not) but it makes no sense to formulate an argument based on a TV show and to appeal to the authority of a screenwriter whose political credentials you know absolutely nothing about.  At the very least the libertarians here have read about and considered these issues and pretty well know what they're talking about. 

The point isn't to feel better about yourself, the point is the pursuit of truth and freedom.
No assumptions just implying that at nineteen one has a lot to still learn, but you certainly were ready with an assumption when you asked 'really' in a suggestive manner. Nice to see you agreed that some are at least informed...and probably better than you and I at times on various topics.
And nothing can surprise me anymore at my age.
The pursuit of truth and freedom.....wow......I thought like that when I was 19...and in college.
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 00:37
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I think  those who write for tv or film drama understand politics or social conditions as well as anyone out there,


Really?  Really?

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Look....the bottom line is that any type of real libertarianism is a pipe dream. Ain't never gonna happen because The Powers That Be like things the way they are....period.


The improbability of the drastic reduction or abolition of the power of the state does not diminish the necessity of striving towards the same.  Just because reaching an ideal is improbable does not mean we should not pursue it, for we strive to form the real in the image of the ideal even though the ideal may never be fully realized.
Really..? Yes...certainly as well as a 19 year old from Drury University or do you think they aren't educated in the same things the rest of us are?
Ermm
Strive all you want...it makes one feel better about themselves.
Smile


You would do well to check your assumptions at the door before having a discussion with me.  If you think you're debating with a know-nothing party-happy college student, you're in for a nasty surprise.

I have no idea how informed any particular screenwriter is about politics (probably some are informed and some not) but it makes no sense to formulate an argument based on a TV show and to appeal to the authority of a screenwriter whose political credentials you know absolutely nothing about.  At the very least the libertarians here have read about and considered these issues and pretty well know what they're talking about. 

The point isn't to feel better about yourself, the point is the pursuit of truth and freedom.
No assumptions just implying that at nineteen one has a lot to still learn, but you certainly were ready with an assumption when you asked 'really' in a suggestive manner. Nice to see you agreed that some are at least informed...and probably better than you and I at times on various topics.
And nothing can surprise me anymore at my age.
The pursuit of truth and freedom.....wow......I thought like that when I was 19...and in college.
LOL


Since you seem intent on not answering any of my arguments and instead merely making condescending remarks about my age, I'm done discussing with you unless you actually have something good to say.  I'm not going to waste my time with superfluous appeals to ethos when there's plenty of rational conversation to go around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 09:25
A curious thing happened, now that you have brought age to the discussion. As I read your posts, and since I had no idea about both you ages, I thought Drwu23 was the young one (and younger than 19) and AmbientHurricanes the older, mature one. From the quality of the writing and the arguments... And look, I don't even necessarily agree with him. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 11:29
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

humans are basically a nasty lot when left unregulated.


This is said a lot, but it has never actually been shown.
Are you kidding.....?
Confused


Did that seem funny in any way?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 11:38
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

A curious thing happened, now that you have brought age to the discussion. As I read your posts, and since I had no idea about both you ages, I thought Drwu23 was the young one (and younger than 19) and AmbientHurricanes the older, mature one. From the quality of the writing and the arguments... And look, I don't even necessarily agree with him. 


I think by now most here know how old I am....(I think Dean is the  only one older..?), you must have been out that day.
I try to keep young at heart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 11:40
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

humans are basically a nasty lot when left unregulated.


This is said a lot, but it has never actually been shown.
Are you kidding.....?
Confused


Did that seem funny in any way?
Again..are you kidding..?Any chance they get people will act up when no one is looking or controlling what they do...especially when all hell breaks loose and no one is there to stop them.
that was the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 12:20
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^And I agree with that. I don't humans are good or bad or whatever. They just are. Studies are conflicting but they also have shown what humans are capable of (like the Milgram one) and we can agree that since all humans are somewhat different (I don't believe we are all that different), and many end up full of traits and characteristics that align with what simplistically we can call "bad", the lack of regulation (again, not intended as government regulation) can lead to abuse, chaos, those with specific traits taking advantage of those who are not expecting those behaviors, etc. And since spontaneous order I feel is difficult to establish under normal conditions, a governing body has to take care of that. The nature of that body is to be defined. I feel that having multiple bodies representing multiple interests only can lead to a reproduction of the same phenomenon. That's why I favor one single body that in theory at least can represent all. In theory.


We knew what humans were capable of long before Miligram. I'm not sure that study, or others often cited in the same vein like the Stanford prison experiments, really show what their conclusion claim they show. I'm not going to deny that some people will behave quite immorally in situations where they fear no repercussions, but I'm not going to try to draw conclusions about the natural tendencies of humanity from that.

Peter Richardson said something similar lately to what I'm trying to get across.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 12:21
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

humans are basically a nasty lot when left unregulated.


This is said a lot, but it has never actually been shown.
Are you kidding.....?
Confused


Did that seem funny in any way?
Again..are you kidding..?Any chance they get people will act up when no one is looking or controlling what they do...especially when all hell breaks loose and no one is there to stop them.
that was the point.


My point is that no, that's not the case. And you have nothing to support your position. Humans have no default state they revert to in absence of our arbitrary definitions of authority.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 13:10
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

humans are basically a nasty lot when left unregulated.


This is said a lot, but it has never actually been shown.
Are you kidding.....?
Confused


Did that seem funny in any way?
Again..are you kidding..?Any chance they get people will act up when no one is looking or controlling what they do...especially when all hell breaks loose and no one is there to stop them.
that was the point.


My point is that no, that's not the case. And you have nothing to support your position. Humans have no default state they revert to in absence of our arbitrary definitions of authority.
Nothing to support it....what planet are you living on?
Try reading the newspaper once in a while....the world is constantly at each others throat and that's with govts in place.
Ermm
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 19:39
A lot of this really depends on how you define your terms.  For example, if you want to argue that humans are fundamentally evil, and by that you mean that they are hell-bent on murdering, raping, and stealing from each other, you're going to get annihilated in debate by the sheer force of common sense.  But if by "fundamentally evil" you mean that humans are by nature primarily self-interested and lost in their own self-importance, then that's quite a bit more feasible.  The same kind of thing goes for any other position on the issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2014 at 22:16
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

humans are basically a nasty lot when left unregulated.
This is said a lot, but it has never actually been shown.

Are you kidding.....?
Confused
Did that seem funny in any way?

Again..are you kidding..?Any chance they get people will act up when no one is looking or controlling what they do...especially when all hell breaks loose and no one is there to stop them.
that was the point.
My point is that no, that's not the case. And you have nothing to support your position. Humans have no default state they revert to in absence of our arbitrary definitions of authority.

Nothing to support it....what planet are you living on?

Try reading the newspaper once in a while....the world is constantly at each others throat and that's with govts in place.

Ermm

 


This makes your point stronger rather than weaker how, exactly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2014 at 21:10
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Nothing to support it....what planet are you living on?
Try reading the newspaper once in a while....the world is constantly at each others throat and that's with govts in place.
Ermm
 


A rational one.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 26 2014 at 21:11
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LSDisease Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2014 at 08:54
My views in 20 minutes Larken Rose's message.

"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2014 at 11:37
Nobody is so interested in you or your views that is going to spend 20 minutes of his life watching a video to learn what you think. If you wants us to know, tell us yourself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2014 at 21:04
This would be a great toy line for our mush-brained youth:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2014 at 16:52
Time to resurrect this thread to ask a question to the libertarians here: what do you feel about mergers like the one that is possibly going to happen between Comcast and Time Warner, thus creating a mega-monster company with a semi-monopoly of one industry? I guess your preference for the market to be let free and government not to intervene will make you say "if they want, why would it bother me?" But this is basically reducing options for people, this is basically making sure one single company can do whatever it wants in prices, offers and everything without any relevant competition that would be able to stop her from abusing its power. Isn't this a horrendous market consequence that can be addressed? I know libertarianism asks for anti-trust laws to be repelled, but I don't really see how this can be supported in the benefits of anyone but Comcast shareholders... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2014 at 04:09
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Time to resurrect this thread to ask a question to the libertarians here: what do you feel about mergers like the one that is possibly going to happen between Comcast and Time Warner, thus creating a mega-monster company with a semi-monopoly of one industry? I guess your preference for the market to be let free and government not to intervene will make you say "if they want, why would it bother me?" But this is basically reducing options for people, this is basically making sure one single company can do whatever it wants in prices, offers and everything without any relevant competition that would be able to stop her from abusing its power. Isn't this a horrendous market consequence that can be addressed? I know libertarianism asks for anti-trust laws to be repelled, but I don't really see how this can be supported in the benefits of anyone but Comcast shareholders... 


I thought this was exactly the kind of thing people like Ron & Rand Paul claim to oppose. Although how they would propose to stop monoploies developing without significant government intervention in the marketplace - in itself an anti libertarian concept - I have no idea.

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