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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: April 04 2014 at 10:18
Acting in one's self interest does not always serve the best interests of the world at large.  It's oft-repeated by free market-advocates but it's just a myth.  Of course there's a built in assumption in said myth that the decision made to serve one's self interest would always be the most rational one but practical experience shows that things like greed or fear or ambition override rationality all too frequently. Why would an incumbent CEO of GM bother about the ignition switch problem (if I am not mistaken, that is the issue?) if he's very likely not going to be the one who has to face the music when it blows up?

Another thing I'd like to say is the theory that competition would somehow take care of these greedy oligarchs seems to ignore the financial dimension of the marketplace.  The marketplace is not just a location where goods are bought and sold.  It is also a place where money multiplies and often by a mindboggling factor.  And that puts the player with say a large market share as well as large share capital at a totally different level.  You can never ever create a level playing field on the financial side because the larger player gets money at far more favourable terms which it can use to shut out upstarts before they have half a chance.


Edited by rogerthat - April 04 2014 at 10:24
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The T View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 10:22
^I agree with that Rogerthat. 
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:26
Originally posted by The T

I don't hate but I don't revere them either as "makers" or any other stupid name they have been given. And yes, they basically will be able to own the government now. Thanks to the Supreme Court, guarantor of people's rights and freedoms. 

Rich people, that is. 

And they will find some justification in the centuries old stupid book called the constitution. 


This is how legal systems work. You have sets of laws and you make rulings according to them. Complaining about that is just crying that you don't get your way. It's not enough to sit here and throw around blame because you think the ruling will have detrimental consequences. You need to find some justification in the law for them to have ruled differently.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:28
Originally posted by The T

Did you all hear or read about the GM recall? How they knew about this problem for about 10 years and didn't do anything because it would've cost them about a dollar per vehicle? Not just a minor corporation but one that was the largest in the world just a few years ago. Incapable of "self-regulating" or acting with the consumer's best interests in mind, prior to it being saved by taxpayers. This case among many others speak a little ill of corporations doing the right thing thanks to market considerations and not to regulations. 


What free market consequences? The courts are set up to not give appropriate compensation in liability suits and consumers too passive to let secondary information affect their purchasing patterns.

What regulations do you propose to prevent something like this?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:31
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by The T

I don't hate but I don't revere them either as "makers" or any other stupid name they have been given. And yes, they basically will be able to own the government now. Thanks to the Supreme Court, guarantor of people's rights and freedoms. 

Rich people, that is. 

And they will find some justification in the centuries old stupid book called the constitution. 


This is how legal systems work. You have sets of laws and you make rulings according to them. Complaining about that is just crying that you don't get your way. It's not enough to sit here and throw around blame because you think the ruling will have detrimental consequences. You need to find some justification in the law for them to have ruled differently.
You are mostly right Pat. Internet ranting takes many forms. Sometimes it gets me frustrated when I see the level of reverence that is held for the Constitution not because I think it should be violated, but because I think it is quite perfectible and anachronistic (the gun thing for example) and this reverence stops any conversation from being had that deals with severe changes to it. I know how legal systems work (I studied law in Ecuador after all). 

If also frustrates me the enormous power the Supreme Court has to basically shape American politics and everything. It has become way more than a co-legislator.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:33
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by The T

Did you all hear or read about the GM recall? How they knew about this problem for about 10 years and didn't do anything because it would've cost them about a dollar per vehicle? Not just a minor corporation but one that was the largest in the world just a few years ago. Incapable of "self-regulating" or acting with the consumer's best interests in mind, prior to it being saved by taxpayers. This case among many others speak a little ill of corporations doing the right thing thanks to market considerations and not to regulations. 


What free market consequences? The courts are set up to not give appropriate compensation in liability suits and consumers too passive to let secondary information affect their purchasing patterns.

What regulations do you propose to prevent something like this?
You get me wrong. What GM did (or failed to do) is to take preventive actions by itself without external regulation to address a known problem and thus save lives. This makes me a little uncertain about corporations ever being able to regulate themselves and act in the consumer's best interest just out of fear from competition and market outcomes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:38
Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by The T

I don't hate but I don't revere them either as "makers" or any other stupid name they have been given. And yes, they basically will be able to own the government now. Thanks to the Supreme Court, guarantor of people's rights and freedoms. 

Rich people, that is. 

And they will find some justification in the centuries old stupid book called the constitution. 


This is how legal systems work. You have sets of laws and you make rulings according to them. Complaining about that is just crying that you don't get your way. It's not enough to sit here and throw around blame because you think the ruling will have detrimental consequences. You need to find some justification in the law for them to have ruled differently.
You are mostly right Pat. Internet ranting takes many forms. Sometimes it gets me frustrated when I see the level of reverence that is held for the Constitution not because I think it should be violated, but because I think it is quite perfectible and anachronistic (the gun thing for example) and this reverence stops any conversation from being had that deals with severe changes to it. I know how legal systems work (I studied law in Ecuador after all). 

If also frustrates me the enormous power the Supreme Court has to basically shape American politics and everything. It has become way more than a co-legislator.  


Reverence for the Constitution exists only as a talking point. People use it to justify their positions when it supports them and systematically ignore it when it does not. People never try to change it though which is interesting. 

I agree with your last point.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:42
Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by The T

Did you all hear or read about the GM recall? How they knew about this problem for about 10 years and didn't do anything because it would've cost them about a dollar per vehicle? Not just a minor corporation but one that was the largest in the world just a few years ago. Incapable of "self-regulating" or acting with the consumer's best interests in mind, prior to it being saved by taxpayers. This case among many others speak a little ill of corporations doing the right thing thanks to market considerations and not to regulations. 


What free market consequences? The courts are set up to not give appropriate compensation in liability suits and consumers too passive to let secondary information affect their purchasing patterns.

What regulations do you propose to prevent something like this?
You get me wrong. What GM did (or failed to do) is to take preventive actions by itself without external regulation to address a known problem and thus save lives. This makes me a little uncertain about corporations ever being able to regulate themselves and act in the consumer's best interest just out of fear from competition and market outcomes. 


I think I understood. What I mean to say is that the idea of self-regulation presupposes some consumer-producer feedback loop. The robustness of the connection should be proportional to the amount of self-regulation. I'm saying that ,because of reasons partly systematic and partly by the choice of those on the consumer side, this loop is rather weak.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:48
There is a point though when you expect that even with a minimal feedback loop a company could look at a problem and say "hey, one day we might pay even more for this", to talk in merely monetary terms. In this case, 13 (or so) people died through the years. There was not enough connection between them (or their families better said) to create a consumer movement capable of force any changes. Cases happened not in one week but throughout several years. But GM knew about this defect, they knew the problem from it seems 2005, they knew this ignition problem could potentially turn cars off out of nowhere and the consequences would be obvious. But they didn't act. 
 


Edited by The T - April 04 2014 at 13:49
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 13:54
I'm not defending their actions. I'm just saying that they're not surprising. Things don't hurt you in the long run if people don't care enough about causing deaths to stop buying your cars and if those directly involved won't be awarded an appropriate sum.

The thing is that people will rage and moan and complain to no end about something like this (I'm not directing this at you) because raging and moaning and complaining takes minimal effort, is enjoyable, and builds up some moral superiority. Then when those same people need a new car in a month, if they can get an extra year on their parts and labor warranty through GM, they'll buy themselves a GM.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 14:12
That last part is sadly so true... Disapprove
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progkidjoel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Failcore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:34
Originally posted by progkidjoel



Check your socialism, statelord.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progkidjoel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:36
Originally posted by Failcore

Originally posted by progkidjoel



Check your socialism, statelord.

Check your statism, socialord.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Failcore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:37
Originally posted by progkidjoel

Originally posted by Failcore

Originally posted by progkidjoel



Check your socialism, statelord.

Check your statism, socialord.


Check your lord, social state.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progkidjoel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:38
Originally posted by Failcore

Originally posted by progkidjoel

Originally posted by Failcore

Originally posted by progkidjoel



Check your socialism, statelord.

Check your statism, socialord.


Check your lord, social state.

Check state lord, your social.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Failcore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:40
Originally posted by progkidjoel

Originally posted by Failcore

Originally posted by progkidjoel

Originally posted by Failcore

Originally posted by progkidjoel



Check your socialism, statelord.

Check your statism, socialord.


Check your lord, social state.

Check state lord, your social.


Lord your state, social check.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 10:29
Making fun of libertarians on the internet, Joel you so brave : O



Edit: That chain is gunna go down in PA lore LOL


Edited by JJLehto - April 11 2014 at 10:30
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 10:39
I don't find comics that clever when you can replace one noun with any other to get an equally worthy joke.

I have too much respect for diction.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2014 at 10:48
Not really, if you replace the noun "world" for anything else it kind of looks nonsensical Clown
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