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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2014 at 08:50

Those are some good examples and accurate answers to the question. Now, for political purposes only, I wouldn’t really use the line “libertarianism – like in medieval Ireland!”  TongueTongueClown

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 07:39
Medieval Iceland is an example I've heard put out before, I know David Friedman was one, and sorry...not that it invalidates their discussion but like I said with the going back and back...when you have to pull out Medieval Iceland as an example for your views, and how we can do this for 2014 US society I see a bit of an issueLOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:16
Also, if even today Iceland is not precisely threatening China or India for the title of largest population on Earth, how many inhabitants could it have had in medieval times?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:20
I think people misunderstand the point of the reference. Critics will say: The idea isn't possible in principle. You have a counterexample to show that this is false. It's not to say that the same system could be imported to the present day.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:25
That is correct, but and that's why I jokingly said that, for political purposes, libertarians would do well not to use these examples as reference. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 10:29
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I think people misunderstand the point of the reference. Critics will say: The idea isn't possible in principle. You have a counterexample to show that this is false. It's not to say that the same system could be imported to the present day.

Totally fair. Though I'm sure you get the intent, which is that it would need to be a relevant example. 
The late 19th century US for example, it is still at least comparable and fairly modern but when you have to reach that far back... hard to take it as a legitimate response.  You are right though, there are examples and if you want to say "there are none!" prepare to be bested. 

Related, I'm not sure if it's actually him but I think it was....David D Friedman actually commented on my Amazon review of "The Machinery of Freedom" and specifically my calling out his example of medieval Iceland, so I learned my lesson then LOL 

That too Teo, no one cares Cry I was intrigued by Iceland and their not bailing out of their banks/political protests after the recession and I really had to dig to find good info. They are tiny and not "important" so no one cared about their intriguing battle with intl courts (they won btw) about not bailing out some big banks, and how the people peacefully up rooted their government. 


Edited by JJLehto - May 23 2014 at 10:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 11:16
I understand the want for a modern example, but I have two problems with this in practice:

1) The lack of an example is equated to a situation where a controlled experiment to produce one was attempted and failed. This is clearly not the case so the lack of a modern example really means nothing other than no nation currently organizes itself this way, a situation itself also colored by the way we define nation.

2) All examples must be governmental. There are plenty examples of self-organization on a large scale interacting with law and the enforcement of law, but they exist contained regions ruled by a government or as international associations whose groups are all ruled by a government.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2014 at 15:24
Well, not much else can be said. That is pretty much the core of it. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2014 at 13:39
One of my favourite philosophical bloggers, Scott Alexander of Slate Star Codex, has posted a lengthy essay where he examines Robert Nozick's libertarian utopia in some rather odd directions. (the "Moldbug" and "Ozy" referred to are pseudonyms of bloggers with their own eccentric political philosophies)

Thought people here in this thread would find it worth reading.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2014 at 14:28
Hmm maybe on Monday when I am done studying I'll give it a read. Is it difficult? Ya know how those Harvard types areLOL


I once tried Rawls' book and honestly couldn't comprehend any of it...a blurb from the internet summarized the main point well enough! 

Edit: Oops! I thought this was by Nozick, the dangers of skim reading...
I will certainly give it a read once I can dedicate some time. 



Edited by JJLehto - June 07 2014 at 14:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2014 at 15:16
Nope, I think if it actually was Nozick himself who wrote that it would have been linked more extensively.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2014 at 19:21
I want to ask those who have studied Hayek's work whether this is a valid take on his theories, that he dealt with mal-investment rather than oversupply.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2014 at 20:25
I'm no Hayek scholar, but it seems like a very fair representation. I'm surprised to hear that his work is largely misinterpreted in the opinion of the authors. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2014 at 23:04
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I want to ask those who have studied Hayek's work whether this is a valid take on his theories, that he dealt with mal-investment rather than oversupply.  



I'll agree with Pat, can't say I'm a scholar but he was my economist of choice for a few years so I learned as much about him as I can, and this seems quite accurate. I know he spoke of mal investment, and the overall jist of the article isn't far off either, that if one took Hayek's words all the way you don't end up drastically far away/deep in crazy land. 

If you want to hear more from a guy who is a scholar, there's this (there are 2nd and 3rd parts). Explains Hayek pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZvKv7uljc

I will admit, it could be my being dumb but I always took the Austrian term "mal investment" literally, (bad investment). $ being thrown into highly questionable internet companies, loans being made on people with chance to pay, and all these investments must crash eventually, since ya know they just aren't sound. 



Edited by JJLehto - June 16 2014 at 23:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2014 at 10:19
Well, if I go by the article, it partly implies that too.  "Excess savings above that which can be profitably invested in satisfying consumer demand in the near future are invested in lines of production satisfying demand in the farther future."   It correctly diagnoses that recessions may often be driven by an excess of optimism and enthusiasm directing investment towards ultimately unprofitable ventures.  After all, what causes demand to collapse is that the price isn't right (e.g. gets too expensive but businesses continue to invest even at unsustainable levels of cost).  Whereas calling into an excess of supply alone seems to imply that you could blow a demand balloon to get up to that level of supply and everything would be ok.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2014 at 14:58
Pretty much. 
Again call me a layman, I kind of always took Austrian theory to mean there was actually too much demand, that is pretty much what they say, the economy is being pumped up beyond its means. Ya know the CB,  low interest rates, easy money and all that artificially boosting the economy (demand). This is the ABCT. 

I think the confusion by critics could be laziness....conservative economists tend to be concerned with supply side, so critics figure "Austrians are conservative so they are about over supply" just my gut. 

Which the article is right, that isn't so far off from the mainstream. It's like a description of the before, while others deal with the after. I still think the school of thought has some interesting ideas about CBs and their focus on the "boom" while many economists seem to ignore that aspect, (if not encourage it) just the ideas are not fully applicable and they arrive at too extreme (and/or wrong ) conclusions. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2014 at 10:08
Thanks for the videos, very informative.  I think the difference between mal investment and oversupply is nuanced.  He made a statement in the video there that "not everything is reversible".  So not all bad investment is going to somehow get utilised at a higher level of demand, which it seems is what Keynesians believe.  This is why ghost towns do exist and only get revived when they reinvent themselves by accommodating new industries instead of waiting for erstwhile ones to come back.  It is interesting that there is a sort of behavioural dynamic in the Austrian/Hayek approach (i.e bad decisions rather than just a mathematical mismatch of demand and supply levels), used to think it was pretty classical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2014 at 10:14
{Runs in} Boo! Socialism! {Runs back out again}
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2014 at 10:34
Don't run Doc, there's little activity here lately and some of us have started to devolve into statist monsters again Tongue (at least to a degree) 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2014 at 10:46
Uh-oh. What happened? Strangely enough, I've started leaning quite a bit more on the libertarian side lately. At the very least, I'm beginning to see that we need to tear it all down and start again.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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