Progarchives.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
  FAQ FAQ  Forum SearchSearch  Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 280281282283284 285>
Author
Message
rogerthat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: September 03 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5480
Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: June 18 2014 at 10:50
At any rate, the current way of doing things is unsustainable.  I am not talking economics here but climate change.  If there was no infinite note printing machine at the disposal of governments and money supply was more tied to real economy, perhaps, who knows, we wouldn't have overbuilt the world economy to the point where it consumes resources like an alcoholic.  I am not saying go back to gold standard but there are many good reasons why we need to give up inflationary medicine.  It's not medicine at all, it's a poison pill.
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Jersey, US
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33069
Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2014 at 01:50
Originally posted by rogerthat

Thanks for the videos, very informative.  I think the difference between mal investment and oversupply is nuanced.  He made a statement in the video there that "not everything is reversible".  So not all bad investment is going to somehow get utilised at a higher level of demand, which it seems is what Keynesians believe.  This is why ghost towns do exist and only get revived when they reinvent themselves by accommodating new industries instead of waiting for erstwhile ones to come back.  It is interesting that there is a sort of behavioural dynamic in the Austrian/Hayek approach (i.e bad decisions rather than just a mathematical mismatch of demand and supply levels), used to think it was pretty classical.


Nuanced is a nice way to put it lol 
You pretty much hit it on the head with the behavioral economics thing, I DO think this human aspect is important and while it's good to strive to be more scientific, econ is basically the study of people, and it's essential to keep this human aspect. 
While it is an intriguing view the Austrians have, perhaps with some validity still in their banking theories I certainly have ended that affair LOL

I never was on board with their 19th century levels of gov (sometimes older!) and I tried to accept the whole "totally unfettered free markets will maintain full(is) employment" but no, this makes no sense and seems draconian to want to cut people off when the capitalist system seems to need unemployed/low earners. 
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Jersey, US
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33069
Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2014 at 01:57
Originally posted by rogerthat

At any rate, the current way of doing things is unsustainable.  I am not talking economics here but climate change.  If there was no infinite note printing machine at the disposal of governments and money supply was more tied to real economy, perhaps, who knows, we wouldn't have overbuilt the world economy to the point where it consumes resources like an alcoholic.  I am not saying go back to gold standard but there are many good reasons why we need to give up inflationary medicine.  It's not medicine at all, it's a poison pill.


Certainly something we never hear about! 
At least not seriously... Even liberals seem to cop out and accept flimsy band aids, after all can't hurt growth. 
Perhaps this is pessimistic, but I have read articles about maybe the "Western" world has basically maxed out, and maybe we have a future of low to near no growth. I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem like we have a possibility to balance the environment and economy? Like if there was ever a time to accept more restrained economy for the sake of environment, going forward seems to be the time. 


Supposedly the think tank associated with U Mass has a focus on environmental economics, it's a program I'm interested in (if I can get Equality Pat maybe to help me get through these math classesLOL)


Edited by JJLehto - June 19 2014 at 01:58
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: September 03 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5480
Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2014 at 10:04
Yeah, broadly agree with both your above comments.  I don't think we can afford to go back to 19th century ways of doing things because we are not in the 19th century anymore.  But there is also no reason why 21st century should only be defined by recklessness.   It is effective allocation of resources that can bring about long lasting, sustainable prosperity, not growth by any means.  Growth propelled by steroids is going to fizzle out sooner or later. Maybe we are all dead in the long run but we don't need to make sure Planet Earth is dead in the long run too.
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16391
Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 13:51
I read this phrase on a study and an article about something completely different but it rings a bell here: 

“'freedom from,' or acting without restraint or interference from other people, is insufficient without 'freedom to,' or possessing resources that enable one to act"

I seriously think some currents of libertarianism don't even conceive the possibility of the second existing. 
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8347
Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 14:14
Holy Batman. You really have gone to the dark side, T. That almost sounds like something I would say (have said). Haha.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16391
Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 14:32
The cycle of light-dark is a constant for those of us constantly asking questions, and evolving. Tongue 
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8347
Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 14:45
Agreed. I've become somewhat disillusioned with the left. Not so much that my opinions have changed, but just a realization that the left has reshifted its focus away from what I wish it was focused on (the plight of the working poor and middle class). And some of its focus is diametrically opposed to both my beliefs and my own self-interests. Also, I've come to understand more the distrust of the state that many here discuss. At the same time, I still distrust private power as well. I think I'm coming to believe there is no good form of society.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16391
Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 15:50

I don’t think the left has re-shifted its focus, I think that its sad representative, the Democratic Party (if we can call it “left”) is the one that has. Of course even with that it’s still preferable to the alternative.

 

Oh the state can be very dangerous. I’ve learned a lot from my libertarian adventures and definitely think way different than I used to. But a state-less society would be even worse. 

Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8347
Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 15:58
I think the left has shifted its focus (in the long term-over the past 50 years or so) from purely economic fronts and protection of worker's rights to social engineering and the PC movement. Socially, I've always been fiercely individualistic and the focus of the left on socially engineering society into its form of "utopia" upsets me as much as the right's attempts to do the same. As an easy example, the whole anti-smoking thing has its origins on the left side of the political spectrum and you will still find many more liberals than conservatives who are vehemently opposed to smoking and would just as soon outlaw it (while at the same time of course, legalizing weed). That's just one example. No, I haven't gone to the right (because economically, I still hate greed, and I don't much care for their "moral" utopia either), but the left needs to get out of the social engineering game or to me it is just as bad as the right.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16391
Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 16:07
I can't stand the PC thing either... Their social engineering is less of a problem since they fail miserably at it. But I'd love if they focused on worker’s rights and actually fighting structural inequality.

 

Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8347
Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 16:15
If you mean fighting class-based structural inequality, I'm right there with you. Other supposed fights against structural inequality (one in particular) is where my main divergence with the left lies.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16391
Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 16:17
Which one? 

Me, I would favor fighting against class-based socio-economical inequality, but also fighting against discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender, color, etc. 


Edited by The T - June 20 2014 at 16:20
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8347
Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 16:26
I am opposed to government discrimination against all of those classes which you mentioned, orientation, race or gender. However, I don't believe the government's role is to ensure equal outcomes and I believe in equal treatment under the law. Period. That means any laws or government actions which favor one race over another, one gender over another, or one orientation over another are abhorrent to me. However, the left seems intent especially on favoring one of those classes over its opposite.

Edited by The Doctor - June 20 2014 at 16:28
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16391
Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 17:05
I don't believe much in affirmative action either. 
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8347
Post Options Post Options   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 19:06
Not just affirmative action though.  I also don't agree with longer prison sentences for certain races, or gender for that matter, over others for the same crime.  Unfortunately, that happens all the time.  Nor do I agree with denying the right of anyone to marry anyone they see fit to marry (within the confines of consenting adults of course). 


Edited by The Doctor - June 20 2014 at 19:07
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: September 03 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5480
Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 19:41
Back home too, supposedly left leaning media organisations or even politicians are more interested in stopping the demolition of an illegally built residential complex for the wealthy.  They are more interested in decrying hikes of premium passenger rail fares or petrol, things which may affect the middle or upper middle class but not so much the poor.  Left has become a vehicle for voicing middle class's need to be pampered, i.e., pocket all the pay hikes you get at work but do not pay a penny extra for services to compensate for inflation.  I think perhaps the dramatic reduction in the political power of trade unions has 'left' them clueless.
Back to Top
ProgMetaller2112 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Riverside,CA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2392
Post Options Post Options   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 21:47
I find legacy students/preference to be just as much of a violation of liberty as Affirmative Action. S I guess the playing field is leveled. I wish we did away with it all, right? T is a coconut (cough) (cough) just kidding I don't know you Tongue

Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - June 20 2014 at 21:49
“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart

Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: September 03 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5480
Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 22:52
^^^  Well, I think 'paid' seats are an absolute disgrace.  It's one thing if there is no demand but if there are more candidates than seats, then allocation should be on merit.  Don't know whether such a concept even exists in USA, but it's certainly rampant here.  No person should be able to buy his way into a good institution in spite of being a mediocre student just because he has the money that a more deserving candidate doesn't.  These are some of the aspects where it may be difficult to completely do away with regulation.  With that said, I don't see that regulation has solved the problem. What with liberals bleeding their hearts all over pass percentages, our high school scoring has become utter madness where students with 94% can't get a seat!   You should allow students to fail or get poor marks, it's part of life, it's NOT inhuman.

Edited by rogerthat - June 20 2014 at 22:56
Back to Top
ProgMetaller2112 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Riverside,CA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2392
Post Options Post Options   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2014 at 23:00
^^^ Oh, it exists at a rampant pace in the US
“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 280281282283284 285>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.69
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.703 seconds.