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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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Negoba View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Negoba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die
    Posted: May 11 2012 at 14:38
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by Negoba

First of all, I know you know more about economics than I do. But I'm just going to give my opinion of what I know and what I remember.


Did I call you economic ignorant? That wasn't my intention if you've gotten that impression. I wasn't trying to say anything about your knowledge on the subject.

No, not at all, I just realized reading back on my own stuff that I sounded like I thought I knew what I was talking about in some studied way. I'm just a guy reading stuff on the side trying to figure some things out.
Originally posted by Negoba

 
When I started asking my friends in business, they quickly started talking about credit. At first I didn't get the difference, and felt that credit was bad in general. But I'm starting to figure out that all money is credit. Hard currency is just a credit for a specific amount of gold or whatever. No one ever goes to get the gold. Few would have any use for it even if they did. The only reason that it feels better is because of the shared perception of its ability to retain value. If my gold is buried in the back yard and I write notes on it, and no one ever claims it, it doesn't matter if it's there or not.


Having notes tied to a reserve of bullion limits the inflationary possibilities of a bank. It particularly makes it difficult, absent a central body such as a regional governmental bank, to inflate in the face of robust competition.
 
Well it may help some, but as long as fractional reserves are allowed, it's hard to call the currency truly "hard." What we have now is various governments, via their central banks, acting as the hard backing rather than gold. The trust in the solvency, trust in the IOUs written by what is perceived to be a solid institution.
 
 
Originally posted by Negoba

So again back to my original issue. Money is a social construct. A story or narrative that directs behavior. The problem for me is that the narrative of the exact same term (one dollar) means vastly different things for different members of the populace, mainly based on financial savvy. The explicit narrative is that a dollar has a specific value. This is a lie. A dollar is an agreement and that agreement is extremely malleable. I watch vulnerable people getting hurt almost weekly because they believe this lie.


I agree with this only when talking about a particular monetary system. Money fully has a physical reality, but people seem to lose sight of that sometimes.
 
What physical reality? Other than the fact that real exchanges occur? I could fix your roof for you because of a cultural construct called money, I could do it because I'm a nice guy. I could do it because I have confidence you're going to come help me harvest my crop later this summer. The paper or even shiny hard stuff we exchange to seal the deal are just tokens of a social agreement.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 14:48
Inflammatory Islam Class Offered to US Soldiers

Originally posted by Article

Among the lectures military officers heard was a presentation by Dooley in which he suggested that Saudi Arabia should be threatened with starvation and that the historical precedents of Hiroshima and Dresden should be considered to deal with holy sites in Saudi Arabia. Dooley also said that the Geneva Conventions were “no longer relevant or respected globally” because of the “current common practices of Islamic terrorists” and that “total war” should be waged on Islam.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 14:52
Originally posted by Negoba

 
Well it may help some, but as long as fractional reserves are allowed, it's hard to call the currency truly "hard." What we have now is various governments, via their central banks, acting as the hard backing rather than gold. The trust in the solvency, trust in the IOUs written by what is perceived to be a solid institution.


 That's true, but I don't support fractional reserve banking to begin with. However, a very natural limit is imposed by the requirement that banks offer specie. Reserve rates would be much higher than we've seen in the past decades.
 

Originally posted by Negoba


What physical reality? Other than the fact that real exchanges occur? I could fix your roof for you because of a cultural construct called money, I could do it because I'm a nice guy. I could do it because I have confidence you're going to come help me harvest my crop later this summer. The paper or even shiny hard stuff we exchange to seal the deal are just tokens of a social agreement.

They represent something. The money you gives me represents the labor and time taken from me. Money represents a natural scarcity of resources. It has parallels to reality.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Negoba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 15:31
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

That's true, but I don't support fractional reserve banking to begin with. However, a very natural limit is imposed by the requirement that banks offer specie. Reserve rates would be much higher than we've seen in the past decades.
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They represent something. The money you gives me represents the labor and time taken from me. Money represents a natural scarcity of resources. It has parallels to reality.
 
 
I don't support fractional reserve banking either. I actually think that FRB is a bigger issue than hard vs soft currency. But the hippy dippy economists I've been reading espouse diversified currencies. Even they admit that attempts at this have generally failed. I've not seen a genuine proposal to accomplish this.
 
Except...what I'm starting to attempt to do in my own life. Which is take as much as I can out of the monetary realm. Especially things that have no need of a mediary.
 
The only thing the approaches a true hard commodity in human life is time. A dollar to me is much less valuable than to many because of pay rate. I am therefore quicker to just pay for things, because I'm paying 3 minutes of my labor while my front desk person might be paying 45 minutes of their labor for the same meal.
 
Similarly, the equivalent of marginal costs for a human life are shelter food, water, etc. When the marginal cost of existence is less than 10% of the dollars you play with in your exchanges, your life is completely different than when your basic needs are 85% of those dollars.
 
Our
Current Listening:

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Maybe cookies coming out of the oven???

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 15:37
Just to randomly inject myself:

I don't like the idea of FRB but I really don't see it happening naturally. I expect it would need to be dictated by law and isn't that a bit anti libertarian?

I do like a more free banking system like Canada had. With a FRB system, and without a central bank, they avoided most of the issues of the 1800s and made it through the Great Depression very well.
If we are stuck with a FRB system, (which I can't imagine going away, especially on it's own) seems like a more stable way to live with it.

You guys know about this blog FOFOA?
It talks about a lot of sh*t, but mainly the theory of "freegold" which this guy claims trumps all, even more important than FRB.
I mentioned it previously, freegold. Intriguing theory.

That's all for me :P


Edited by JJLehto - May 11 2012 at 15:38
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 21:06
Wonder if today's OK chaos will be covered by anyone anywhere.  Kinda doubt it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 21:12
You're probably right MoM, what happened....





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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 21:50
Hard for me to say, exactly, since I wasn't there but from what I've read the state GOP tried to illegally adjourn the convention so it moved out into the parking lot.  From what I understand there were rather heated moments and a physical altercation while they were still inside.  Paul swept all delegates and alternates from the reconveigned outdoor convention while pizzas floaded in courtesy of people at home watching the live stream.  Can't provide any details beyond that.  Seemed like a crazy day.  Here's Reason's quick hit and run roundup (with links): http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/12/follow-todays-gop-state-convention-chaos
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Negoba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 08:06
I really don't get why Paul is maintaining his "I've always been a Republican" stance. The GOP is a joke and while he has some overlap with Republicans, he's really running from a different platform. Clearly they don't have the same respect for him.
 
Run as a Libertarian.
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Griping.
Maybe cookies coming out of the oven???

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 08:38
Originally posted by Negoba

I don't support fractional reserve banking either. I actually think that FRB is a bigger issue than hard vs soft currency. But the hippy dippy economists I've been reading espouse diversified currencies. Even they admit that attempts at this have generally failed. I've not seen a genuine proposal to accomplish this.
 
Except...what I'm starting to attempt to do in my own life. Which is take as much as I can out of the monetary realm. Especially things that have no need of a mediary.
 
The only thing the approaches a true hard commodity in human life is time. A dollar to me is much less valuable than to many because of pay rate. I am therefore quicker to just pay for things, because I'm paying 3 minutes of my labor while my front desk person might be paying 45 minutes of their labor for the same meal.
 
Similarly, the equivalent of marginal costs for a human life are shelter food, water, etc. When the marginal cost of existence is less than 10% of the dollars you play with in your exchanges, your life is completely different than when your basic needs are 85% of those dollars.
 
Our


Good luck eliminating FRB without a hard currency. I don't see how that would be possible. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 08:40
Originally posted by JJLehto

Just to randomly inject myself:

I don't like the idea of FRB but I really don't see it happening naturally. I expect it would need to be dictated by law and isn't that a bit anti libertarian?


Not really. If we have a hard currency, any inflation of notes upon that currency would essentially be fraud and could be handled as such. The idea of a bank note under a gold standard would be to serve as an IOU for a certain weight of specie. Handing out more IOUs than you hold in specie would just be a default.

Originally posted by JJLetho


You guys know about this blog FOFOA?
It talks about a lot of sh*t, but mainly the theory of "freegold" which this guy claims trumps all, even more important than FRB.
I mentioned it previously, freegold. Intriguing theory.

That's all for me :P


Nope. Maybe I'll look at it.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 08:41
Originally posted by Negoba

I really don't get why Paul is maintaining his "I've always been a Republican" stance. The GOP is a joke and while he has some overlap with Republicans, he's really running from a different platform. Clearly they don't have the same respect for him.
 
Run as a Libertarian.


I can think of two reasons: one philosophical and one political. I would think his main reason to be political. Third party amounts to no media coverage. So that's that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 08:43
We've gone over this at length here.  Third party runs are DOA and he knows that from personal experience.  Remaking the republican party from within is what must be done to move the needle in this country.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 08:59
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Originally posted by Negoba

I really don't get why Paul is maintaining his "I've always been a Republican" stance. The GOP is a joke and while he has some overlap with Republicans, he's really running from a different platform. Clearly they don't have the same respect for him.
 
Run as a Libertarian.


I can think of two reasons: one philosophical and one political. I would think his main reason to be political. Third party amounts to no media coverage. So that's that.


Pretty much.


It's a little silly, but the Republican argument does have some ground to it...they were the limited government party once upon a time.
So were Democrats of course but that's even farther back and I think I'd have a better chance of moving Saturn then the DemsLOL

It really is crazy in just 4 years how much Paul has exploded, even if people misunderstand/twist what he says....at least everyone knows of him and some idea of what he's about. Opposed to maybe 5 people I knew back in 08LOL


Edited by JJLehto - May 14 2012 at 09:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 09:00
It's a shame he's not 30 years younger. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 09:00
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

It's a shame he's not 30 years younger. 


Well that's what Rand is for right?


Don't forget Gary Johnson, there's at least 2 torch bearers for a while...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 10:03
I'll pass on both of them. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 14:31
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 17:35
^ I wrote a response earlier but the site crapped out when I tried to post.  It's an frustrating day.  This is amateur hour from a campaign team that has supposedly matured since 08'.  It's statement that didn't need to be made and does nothing but give hacks like Drudge room to run wild with stories of the campaign's demise.  The statement effectively changed nothing (the delegate strategy remains the same) except for squashing spirits within the grassroots.  With the recent grassroots success at state conventions this statement's release is mind boggling.  Silence is golden, Jesse Benton.  Perhaps this should be his last day on the job.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2012 at 17:36
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521

Paul out of race



Ron Paul ends his hunt for votes


Well that's a poor headline (and a poor interpretation of what Paul is doing).  Not spending money =/= out of the race.

I'm still interested to see what will become of Paul- hell, it isn't like the media was giving him much attention before anyway.
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