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Prog Definition

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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog Definition
    Posted: March 08 2012 at 14:15
Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar: no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it

Edited by ExittheLemming - March 08 2012 at 14:24
'The incense burned away and the stench began to rise' (Pete Townshend)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 14:21
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar: no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it


Other common points:
 - It's in 1969 that Denmark legalized porn movies, the year of King Crimson's first LP.
 - The best porn movies were released in the 70's, just like the best prog LPs.
 - It's all about showing off.
 - No one will confess having a huge collection of it.


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 08 2012 at 14:25
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 15:00
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar: no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it
 
Yeah, and who wants porn when you can have Peter Gabriel dressed like a Slippermen LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 15:03
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar: no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it

You nailed it. Tongue

On a side note Robert Fripp won a settlement for the music of Larks' being used in the soft core porn film Emmanuelle. Tongue


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 08 2012 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 16:17
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Dean

...
What a waste of human creativity and intellegence - measument should be in whatever units are readily to hand when things need measuring - I seldom carry around a standard metre or a balance and a set of weights - length is measured in cigarette packets and weight in Mars Bars (also can be used for lenght, volume and monetary value).
 
Nice ... very nice!
 
And if someone adds music, paint or words to it fine ... and we would probably call it "progressive" ... but I'm trying out this new kick that if you have to use a metronome and measure the music, it definitly is not progressive. It's either commercial or pop!
 
Hehehe!
Steady Pedro, I may know precious little of the liberal and/or fine arts or the bohemian pastime (waste-time) of inventing hyperbole and rhetoric on the esoterica aesthetic, or the elitist concept/conceit of style over substance, but here you are entering directly into my realm where I earn my living, that pays my mortgage and puts bread on the table and I can happily regard as being well within my sphere of comfortable knowledge: metrology.
 
For if there was ever an ‘ology’ where I could claim a measure of expertise, this would be it.

And the first rule of mensuration is to make people aware of the dimensions you are working with - to set the yardstick or the benchmark, (literally - a chalk-mark made on the work bench by which lengths were measured for cutting), from which all measurements are referenced, so that all can relate and agree with the measurements being made – and here it matters little precisely what that yardstick is, as long as it remains a constant, unbending and unyielding – it pays not to measure your waistline with an elastic band when going to buy a pair of shorts. So you define the parameters by which you work and by which you can make an account and you make aware to all these are the yardsticks, benchmarks or Mars Bars that you are using and they are a standard, fixed and unchanging, so there is no ambiguity or confusion that paves the way for argument and misunderstanding when someone uses Milkyway or Hershey Bars instead of the standard Mars. This is the common ground and the lingua franca we use to communicate, open and plain for all to see; it is not an invented secret paradigm known only to a chosen few that is used to cast some in-joke to titter behind as some earnest but unsuspecting neophyte trips and stumbles into a gaping gulf of guffawing gaffs.
 
The second rule of mensuration is the accumulation of errors (that result when each is measured with respect to the previous one) must be avoided; rather we should relate every measure back to the golden standard (the original yardstick or benchmark). Here is where we find that, to our cost, when we do not take into account this accumulation of errors and attempt to land our Starship troopers on the dark side of the Moon we find the controls are set for the heart of the Sun; the addition of all the little errors in each incremental measurement we make produce a significantly large error from where we started from, taking us out of the ball-park and dumping us in the Wal*mart parking lot. Around here we call this the "if X then Y" fallacy, running along the lines that if the frog was a Prince and the Prince was a brick then it does not follow that all bricks are frogs. (Or more simplistically: If all Music is Art and all Progressive Rock is Music, that does not mean that all Art is Progressive).
 
The third rule of mensuration is that extrapolation comes at a price, that there is an inevitable and unavoidable confidence factor attached to all measurement that determines how far we can stretch a definition or a measure before it loses its value - here it is the direction rather than the magnitude that creates the error - standing close to the edge of a cliff seven steps on one direction takes you to safety, but get the direction wrong and it's not the drop that will kill you, more the uncomfortable landing. So it is not how many times we move away from our starting point, but which of the many characteristics that defines that starting point we chose to move (or more accurately, which characteristic we chose to measure to see if the subject we are measuring is related to initial object we used to define our standard). A simple rule-of-thumb we can use here is if the thing we measure is only applicable to some and not all, then it is not a defining characteristic, for example some Prog is experimental, but not all Prog is experimental, so extrapolating experimental nature in music as being progressive reduces the confidence factor that the music fits within the boundaries of Progressive Rock if other more common factors and characteristics are not present.
 
This of course begs the question of what these common factors are, but more than that it requires an answer in a common language, the lingua franca of musicians and musicologists, of amateurs and professionals, of fans and academics.
 
In music, the language and terminology that forms the baseline for these measurement parameters was set long ago, long before the Crimson Kings and Blue Moodies, way, way back to Pythagoras (who heard harmony in the Spheres) and Aristotle (who deemed all music to be imitative), and that basic language and vocabulary of music has been in constant development and refinement since then, reaching its peak during the Renaissance were we get most of our measures of time, harmony, pitch, tempo, rhythm, coloration, timbre and even emotion and most of our definitions of structure and form, of composition and arrangement – all well-tempered that it was. That's over 400 years of measurement and definition, classification and description all using a common language that anyone can understand regardless of their native tongue or place (and time) of birth, a language that transcends culture and heritage and philosophy and age and gender and race and religion and bridges countless other gaps and differences we didn't even know existed. And we can do this because we all accept that the language and measurements we use are constant and repeatable and mean the same thing today as they did yesterday and will tomorrow and they will mean the same thing to me as they did to Johan Sebastian Bach and György Ligeti and (even) John Cage and Holger Czukay and Phideaux Xavier and John Petrucci and Jan Akerman and anyone else who knows what polyphony and arpeggio and semi-quaver and even-temper means.
 
Without all this we are just talking meaningless gibberish and jabberish, the mimsy of Carroll and the runcible of Lear, (neologisms though they may be), have no context beyond the borogoves and spoons.
 
Smile


Edited by Dean - March 08 2012 at 17:14


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zravkapt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 17:04
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar
 
If are heavily into either (or both) there is a good chance that most women will avoid you like the plague.
"We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything" - Thomas Edison
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 17:20
Far out, Dean.  Learned a lot from that post.  It made a lot of sense, since I analyze/manipulate data for a living, and keeping proper controls in place is crucial to both meaningful and accurate measurement.  I'd elaborate, but I'm off the clock at the moment. Big smile

edit: I confess I'd never come across the term "mensuration" before though.  I kept thinking I was reading something else. 


Edited by HolyMoly - March 08 2012 at 17:22
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 19:04
Originally posted by Blacksword

Originally posted by lazland


Originally posted by dtguitarfan

What if I ask in 7/4? ;-)

Then you will start a discussion about how some players, notably Nick Mason, are incapable of playing in such a time.


But isn't Money in 7/4?

^^^^ Take note, dtguitarfan, this is what you call 'prog pedancy'

As for my definition of prog. Mental.


I'm ashamed to say I don't really know exactly what a time signature is, and am barely able to recognize if the music is in an odd time signature (and there's no way I'll know in which time signature it is). However, I remember reading about an interview with Gilmour, or Waters, about the 7/4 time signature on Money. The thing is, the band were suposed to be playing in traditional 4/4, while they put the sax player (Dick Parry) to play in 7/4.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 19:08
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush


Its all very easy really Prog is not rocket science:

<er ="er"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, serif; line-height: normal; text-align: left; "><h1 ="ing="" ing2"="" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-weight: normal; font-style: inherit; font-size: 26px; font-family: inherit; ">Progressive Rock What the heck is it???</h1><p ="item"="" id="viewCounts" style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; ">

</er><div id="persistent-share" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: -93px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, serif; -: initial; -attachment: initial; -origin: initial; -clip: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-right-style: solid; border-bottom-style: solid; border-left-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb235, 235, 235; border-right-color: rgb235, 235, 235; border-bottom-color: rgb235, 235, 235; border-left-color: rgb235, 235, 235; : fixed; top: 50px; width: 60px; text-align: center; line-height: normal; "><div id="pshare-container" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 5px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 4px; padding-left: 2px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><div ="pshare-"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: auto; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: auto; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 4px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; : none; clear: left; line-height: 15px; : relative; "><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; : relative; "></span>
<div ="pshare-="" ps-digg-"="" style="margin-top: 8px; margin-right: auto; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: auto; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; : none; clear: left; line-height: 15px; : relative; "><span ="db-wrapper="" db-clear="" db-medium"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; vertical-align: bottom; display: inline-block; zoom: 1; "><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; "><span ="db-container"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; "><span class="db-body db-medium" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-image: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; display: inline-block; zoom: 1; background-image: url(http://widgets.digg.com/img/button/diggThisMedium_3.0cab1d23.png); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; height: 68px; width: 54px; background-position: 0px 0px; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; "><span ="db-count"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 11px; padding-right: 5px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 5px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-weight: bold; font-style: inherit; font-size: 16px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; color: rgb64, 63, 7; display: block; height: 29px; line-height: 1; overflow-x: ; overflow-y: ; width: 44px; ">1,300</span></span></span></span></span><a ="db-anchor"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: auto; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: auto; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; cursor: pointer; color: rgb20, 94, 157; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; display: block; text-indent: -10000px; overflow-x: ; overflow-y: ; height: 24px; width: 46px; ">digg</a><div ="pshare-="" ps-email"="" style="margin-top: 8px; margin-right: auto; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: auto; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; : none; clear: left; line-height: 15px; : relative; ">Email<section =""="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, serif; line-height: normal; text-align: left; "><p ="intro"="" style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; ">Progressive Rock is an attempt to musically orgasm as many times as possible during a 15-minute song.

<figure ="thumbnail"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><figcaption ="caption"=""></figcaption></figure><figure ="thumbnail"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><figcaption ="caption"=""></figcaption></figure><figure ="thumbnail"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><figcaption ="caption"=""></figcaption></figure><h2 ="ing="" ing3"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-weight: normal; font-style: inherit; font-size: 21px; font-family: inherit; ">Just The Facts</h2><ol ="list"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 25px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><li ="item"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">Progressive rock is categorized by a sacking of traditional song structure, complex rhythms, odd time signatures and a sense of inherent superiority over other rock genres<li ="item"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">Because of this, it's pretty much never been popular<li ="item"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">It is the only rock genre in which the term "flute solo" has any meaning<h2 ="ing="" ing3"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-weight: normal; font-style: inherit; font-size: 21px; font-family: inherit; ">Everything You Need to Know About Progressive Rock</h2><div ="ugc"="" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><p style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; ">There is no clear definition of progressive rock, as it is not bounded by convention, structure, tradition or common sense. Progressive rock is like the anti-socialite of music; there are no rules or restrictions.

<p style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; ">However, progressive rock bands have typically featured:

<ul style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; "><li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">Extremely skilled guitarists, drummers, bassists and keyboardists<li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">Okay singers<li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">Huge egos<li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">Tons of drugspiration<li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; ">No sense of when to stop a song<p style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; text-align: center; "><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: x-small; font-family: inherit; ">A typical prog band.</span>

<p style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; ">Basically, progressive rock is anything-goes rock music. If you feel like adding a 30-second audio clip of some farm animals orgasming in the middle of your song, that's a-ok by progressive standards. Hell, it's even encouraged. Literally anything you can record a sound of is welcome in progressive rock.

<p style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; ">Except autotune.

<p style="margin-top: 20px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 1.625em; text-align: center; ">Photobucket

</section><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, serif; line-height: normal; text-align: left; ">Read more: Progressive Rock | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/funny-2359-progressive-rock/#ixzz1oW9T974Z</span>



Many of this things are as a matter of fact somewhat acurate, even if they are shown as a semi-joke. However, as far as I understand, the drugs point I believe is the one that is rather inacurrate. I believe prog bands were not particularly fond of drugs (not more than any other rock/pop genre, at least), and as a matter of fact, I believe there were some prog musicians that were openly against narcotics... in a good measure, because being "high" wouldn't allow you to be at your top for playing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 21:23
Originally posted by Dellinger

 being "high" wouldn't allow you to be at your top for playing.

The great saxophonist Charlie Parker said that he never could have played as well as he did if he hadn't been high.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 23:05
A very informative post by Dean on mensuration but I don't think prog rock or most rock genres for that matter are characterized rigorously.  Many labels are informed purely by subjective perceptions and often reinforced by the media to the point where it becomes redundant to abandon such labels even if it is understood that these labels are not very informative about the nature of the music.  Prog rock is a little better in that regard than such labels as Seattle grunge.

I actually believe characterizing prog strictly through the academic framework is an excellent idea but I don't believe that is the actual practice.  And it is both difficult and unrealistic to put it into practice because rock music is for pleasure and emotional attachment, not intensive academic pursuit.  Prog is not separated from this by such a great degree.  


Edited by rogerthat - March 08 2012 at 23:08
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2012 at 23:54
Originally posted by CPicard

Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar: no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it
Other common points:
 - It's in 1969 that Denmark legalized porn movies, the year of King Crimson's first LP.
 - The best porn movies were released in the 70's, just like the best prog LPs.
 - It's all about showing off.
 - No one will confess having a huge collection of it.
brilliant both of you, and possibly the most descriptive statements on Prog to date.   I would add; size matters, both length and girth; if you last longer than the next guy you're in demand; and somehow cheesy keyboards always find their way into things.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 02:28
Originally posted by rogerthat

A very informative post by Dean on mensuration but I don't think prog rock or most rock genres for that matter are characterized rigorously.  Many labels are informed purely by subjective perceptions and often reinforced by the media to the point where it becomes redundant to abandon such labels even if it is understood that these labels are not very informative about the nature of the music.  Prog rock is a little better in that regard than such labels as Seattle grunge.

I actually believe characterizing prog strictly through the academic framework is an excellent idea but I don't believe that is the actual practice.  And it is both difficult and unrealistic to put it into practice because rock music is for pleasure and emotional attachment, not intensive academic pursuit.  Prog is not separated from this by such a great degree.  
It isn't a matter of rigor but of consistency. 
 
Music is characterised all the time, even Prog Rock, everyone who listens to a piece of music characterises it whether they want to or not - this is a learned process based upon an intuitive trait inherent in all animals with ears. This is the basis for Iain's "no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it" - each of us builds a little memory-model of what Prog sounds like based upon the characteristics we pick out of a broad-base of Prog we listen to, guided by some characteristics we've been told that could exist, such as layering and unusual time signatures (if we can be spot them) and blending of various styles and all those other wonderful things mentioned in this and every other thread and article on "what is Prog" - for many these will simply be the triggers that create pleasure or emotion attachment, but those triggers will be there and they will be in other pieces of music that trigger the same response.
 
The problem therein is not that this model is inaccurate, or is the result of rigorous characterisation: the model serves us well as long as we keep it to ourselves and don't compare the results we obtain in using it with sets of results from other people using their own memory-models. To do that we need to identify commonality in all those individual models, and to do that we each need to be able to articulate in relational and universally understandable terms the measures we used in our personal model and the accuracy with which we applied them - so not only do we have to create a consistency in what we use to identify Prog from Grunge and in the way we apply those values, but there has to be consistency in all the personally models used so we end up talking the same language about the same things.
 


Edited by Dean - March 09 2012 at 02:32


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jim Garten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 02:45
Originally posted by Atavachron


Originally posted by CPicard



Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Prog and Porn are not that dissimilar: no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it

Other common points:  - It's in 1969 that Denmark legalized porn movies, the year of King Crimson's first LP. - The best porn movies were released in the 70's, just like the best prog LPs. - It's all about showing off. - No one will confess having a huge collection of it.
brilliant both of you, and possibly the most descriptive statements on Prog to date.   I would add; size matters, both length and girth; if you last longer than the next guy you're in demand; and somehow cheesy keyboards always find their way into things.


And those who don't understand it, see those of us who do as a bunch of w*****s

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 03:07
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by rogerthat

A very informative post by Dean on mensuration but I don't think prog rock or most rock genres for that matter are characterized rigorously.  Many labels are informed purely by subjective perceptions and often reinforced by the media to the point where it becomes redundant to abandon such labels even if it is understood that these labels are not very informative about the nature of the music.  Prog rock is a little better in that regard than such labels as Seattle grunge.

I actually believe characterizing prog strictly through the academic framework is an excellent idea but I don't believe that is the actual practice.  And it is both difficult and unrealistic to put it into practice because rock music is for pleasure and emotional attachment, not intensive academic pursuit.  Prog is not separated from this by such a great degree.  
It isn't a matter of rigor but of consistency. 
 
Music is characterised all the time, even Prog Rock, everyone who listens to a piece of music characterises it whether they want to or not - this is a learned process based upon an intuitive trait inherent in all animals with ears. This is the basis for Iain's "no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it" - each of us builds a little memory-model of what Prog sounds like based upon the characteristics we pick out of a broad-base of Prog we listen to, guided by some characteristics we've been told that could exist, such as layering and unusual time signatures (if we can be spot them) and blending of various styles and all those other wonderful things mentioned in this and every other thread and article on "what is Prog" - for many these will simply be the triggers that create pleasure or emotion attachment, but those triggers will be there and they will be in other pieces of music that trigger the same response.
 
The problem therein is not that this model is inaccurate, or is the result of rigorous characterisation: the model serves us well as long as we keep it to ourselves and don't compare the results we obtain in using it with sets of results from other people using their own memory-models. To do that we need to identify commonality in all those individual models, and to do that we each need to be able to articulate in relational and universally understandable terms the measures we used in our personal model and the accuracy with which we applied them - so not only do we have to create a consistency in what we use to identify Prog from Grunge and in the way we apply those values, but there has to be consistency in all the personally models used so we end up talking the same language about the same things.
 


Perhaps, I am trying to say the same thing...that there is not a whole lot of consistency in the characterization of many rock genres and that applies to prog.  I personally believe structure and especially the ability to look at structure from an innovative or creative angle is very important in prog while for some others, it is all about odd time sigs.  I don't see odd time sigs as narrow enough a criterion to be that important to characterize prog.  Not that I am right about it or they are wrong, but in this way, it gets tough to zero in on some consistent set of characteristics that tell us that it is prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 03:43
Originally posted by Dellinger

Originally posted by Blacksword

Originally posted by lazland


Originally posted by dtguitarfan

What if I ask in 7/4? ;-)

Then you will start a discussion about how some players, notably Nick Mason, are incapable of playing in such a time.


But isn't Money in 7/4?

^^^^ Take note, dtguitarfan, this is what you call 'prog pedancy'

As for my definition of prog. Mental.


I'm ashamed to say I don't really know exactly what a time signature is, and am barely able to recognize if the music is in an odd time signature (and there's no way I'll know in which time signature it is). However, I remember reading about an interview with Gilmour, or Waters, about the 7/4 time signature on Money. The thing is, the band were suposed to be playing in traditional 4/4, while they put the sax player (Dick Parry) to play in 7/4.
The 7/4 of Money begins in the cash-register sound effect at the start - counting those seven equally space individual sound effects is pretty simple and sets the counting-tempo for the entrance of Water's bass-line which is also in 7/4 - spilt into 3 and 4 - "One Two Three One Two Three Four"... the actual rhythm is in triplets (each quarter note is subdivided into 3 eighth notes), so to sound-out the counting you would go "One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a Four-and-a" etc. Water's actually plays eight notes in each bar, with two notes being played on the second beat, like this:
 
1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  4 and  a
Dum     Da   Da Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum    
 
During Parry's solo (and Gilmour's) it changes to common time.


Edited by Dean - March 09 2012 at 10:44


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:06
My take on the odd time signature theme is that if it's transparently odd it ain't usually successful i.e. stock off the shelf riffage with beats added or subtracted to appear 'difficult' or 'clever' or sophisticated always dies on it's a.r.s.e while a musical idea with phrase length that breathes naturally and musically and resolves itself over 5, 7, 9 etc beats will be hardly noticeable as 'odd'
Dean's Money example is a good one (see also Living In the Past, Tarkus, Solsbury Hill, Dance On a Volcano, Watcher of the Skies etc)
Odd meters are like soccer refs (you don't notice the good ones cos they make the game flow)
'The incense burned away and the stench began to rise' (Pete Townshend)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:09
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

My take on the odd time signature theme is that if it's transparently odd it ain't usually successful i.e. stock off the shelf riffage with beats added or subtracted to appear 'difficult' or 'clever' or sophisticated always dies on it's a.r.s.e while a musical idea with phrase length that breathes naturally and musically and resolves itself over 5, 7, 9 etc beats will be hardly noticeable as 'odd'
Dean's Money example is a good one (see also Living In the Past, Tarkus, Solsbury Hill, Dance On a Volcano, Watcher of the Skies etc)
Odd meters are like soccer refs (you don't notice the good ones cos they make the game flow)


Well put!  It also depends on the selection of percussion instruments, though rock tends to rely mainly on drums.  7/8 for eg is not considered odd at all in Indian music but that is because such time sigs don't 'sound' odd with tabla or dhol.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:13
Originally posted by rogerthat

A very informative post by Dean on mensuration but I don't think prog rock or most rock genres for that matter are characterized rigorously.  Many labels are informed purely by subjective perceptions and often reinforced by the media to the point where it becomes redundant to abandon such labels even if it is understood that these labels are not very informative about the nature of the music.  Prog rock is a little better in that regard than such labels as Seattle grunge.

I actually believe characterizing prog strictly through the academic framework is an excellent idea but I don't believe that is the actual practice.  And it is both difficult and unrealistic to put it into practice because rock music is for pleasure and emotional attachment, not intensive academic pursuit.  Prog is not separated from this by such a great degree.  


Er, wasn't Dean's post made for the lulz? I may understood it the wrong way, but I tend to believe that Dean wrote something on the verge of parody.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:26
^ he's British, if we say we love you we always ask for either a receipt or where you keep your valuables
'The incense burned away and the stench began to rise' (Pete Townshend)
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