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The Bearded Bard View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

What if I ask in 7/4? ;-)

Then you will start a discussion about how some players, notably Nick Mason, are incapable of playing in such a time.


But isn't Money in 7/4?

^^^^ Take note, dtguitarfan, this is what you call 'prog pedancy'

As for my definition of prog. Mental.


I'm ashamed to say I don't really know exactly what a time signature is, and am barely able to recognize if the music is in an odd time signature (and there's no way I'll know in which time signature it is). However, I remember reading about an interview with Gilmour, or Waters, about the 7/4 time signature on Money. The thing is, the band were suposed to be playing in traditional 4/4, while they put the sax player (Dick Parry) to play in 7/4.
The 7/4 of Money begins in the cash-register sound effect at the start - counting those seven equally space individual sound effects is pretty simple and sets the counting-tempo for the entrance of Water's bass-line which is also in 7/4 - spilt into 3 and 4 - "One Two Three One Two Three Four"... the actual rhythm is in triplets (each quarter note is subdivided into 3 eighth notes), so to sound-out the counting you would go "One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a Four-and-a" etc. Water's actually plays eight notes in each bar, with two notes being played on the second beat, like this:
 
1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  4 and  a
Dum     Da   Da Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum    
 
During Parry's solo (and Gilmour's) it changes to common time.
Enlightening!
 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?


Edited by The Bearded Bard - March 09 2012 at 15:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:28
Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:


 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?

Personally I could give a rat's ass about the time signature.  Is the music any damn good?LOL


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 09 2012 at 15:28
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:32
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

I had no idea it was such a sh*tty genre...
 
LOL LMAO ... you guys are just hilarious Big smile .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:35
Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

What if I ask in 7/4? ;-)

Then you will start a discussion about how some players, notably Nick Mason, are incapable of playing in such a time.


But isn't Money in 7/4?

^^^^ Take note, dtguitarfan, this is what you call 'prog pedancy'

As for my definition of prog. Mental.


I'm ashamed to say I don't really know exactly what a time signature is, and am barely able to recognize if the music is in an odd time signature (and there's no way I'll know in which time signature it is). However, I remember reading about an interview with Gilmour, or Waters, about the 7/4 time signature on Money. The thing is, the band were suposed to be playing in traditional 4/4, while they put the sax player (Dick Parry) to play in 7/4.
The 7/4 of Money begins in the cash-register sound effect at the start - counting those seven equally space individual sound effects is pretty simple and sets the counting-tempo for the entrance of Water's bass-line which is also in 7/4 - spilt into 3 and 4 - "One Two Three One Two Three Four"... the actual rhythm is in triplets (each quarter note is subdivided into 3 eighth notes), so to sound-out the counting you would go "One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a Four-and-a" etc. Water's actually plays eight notes in each bar, with two notes being played on the second beat, like this:
 
1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  4 and  a
Dum     Da   Da Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum    
 
During Parry's solo (and Gilmour's) it changes to common time.
Enlightening!
 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?
 
Actually, I think I know. Clap or tap or stomp to 'Money' and figure it out by using this rule of thumb: every clap or whatnot is a quarter-note. For more ease, play the bass riff in 4/4, clap to it, then play it in the original meter, use the rule of thumb, and there you got it! It's in 7/8. So, whoever tells you it's in 7/4, then it's some person who really likes fancy stuff and enjoys the idea of confusing himself Big smile .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:35
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:


 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?

Personally I could give a rat's ass about the time signature.  Is the music any damn good?LOL
I'm just curioius.  And yes, it isBig smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:38
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:


 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?

Personally I could give a rat's ass about the time signature.  Is the music any damn good?LOL
 
See, why would you say that? Do you have any idea how frigging the intro to 'Firth of Fifth' is?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:39
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

What if I ask in 7/4? ;-)

Then you will start a discussion about how some players, notably Nick Mason, are incapable of playing in such a time.


But isn't Money in 7/4?

^^^^ Take note, dtguitarfan, this is what you call 'prog pedancy'

As for my definition of prog. Mental.


I'm ashamed to say I don't really know exactly what a time signature is, and am barely able to recognize if the music is in an odd time signature (and there's no way I'll know in which time signature it is). However, I remember reading about an interview with Gilmour, or Waters, about the 7/4 time signature on Money. The thing is, the band were suposed to be playing in traditional 4/4, while they put the sax player (Dick Parry) to play in 7/4.
The 7/4 of Money begins in the cash-register sound effect at the start - counting those seven equally space individual sound effects is pretty simple and sets the counting-tempo for the entrance of Water's bass-line which is also in 7/4 - spilt into 3 and 4 - "One Two Three One Two Three Four"... the actual rhythm is in triplets (each quarter note is subdivided into 3 eighth notes), so to sound-out the counting you would go "One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a Four-and-a" etc. Water's actually plays eight notes in each bar, with two notes being played on the second beat, like this:
 
1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  4 and  a
Dum     Da   Da Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum    
 
During Parry's solo (and Gilmour's) it changes to common time.
Enlightening!
 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?
 
Actually, I think I know. Clap or tap or stomp to 'Money' and figure it out by using this rule of thumb: every clap or whatnot is a quarter-note. For more ease, play the bass riff in 4/4, clap to it, then play it in the original meter, use the rule of thumb, and there you got it! It's in 7/8. So, whoever tells you it's in 7/4, then it's some person who really likes fancy stuff and enjoys the idea of confusing himself Big smile .
But I don't play bassCry   Tongue
 
So what are you really saying, it's the same?


Edited by The Bearded Bard - March 09 2012 at 15:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:45
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

What is your definition of the word "progressive", when it's used in the phrase "progressive rock"? I've often heard people say "this band is progressive" or "this band is NOT progressive" and I start wondering if we're talking about the same thing.... I'll give my definition after a few people have answered but I'm just curious to see what people say.
 
Besides, there's a whole page on this site dedicated to this question. And when you read the replies of others to your question, it is not to say that prog-rock is EVERYTHING, right?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 19:20
Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by The Bearded Bard The Bearded Bard wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

What if I ask in 7/4? ;-)

Then you will start a discussion about how some players, notably Nick Mason, are incapable of playing in such a time.


But isn't Money in 7/4?

^^^^ Take note, dtguitarfan, this is what you call 'prog pedancy'

As for my definition of prog. Mental.


I'm ashamed to say I don't really know exactly what a time signature is, and am barely able to recognize if the music is in an odd time signature (and there's no way I'll know in which time signature it is). However, I remember reading about an interview with Gilmour, or Waters, about the 7/4 time signature on Money. The thing is, the band were suposed to be playing in traditional 4/4, while they put the sax player (Dick Parry) to play in 7/4.
The 7/4 of Money begins in the cash-register sound effect at the start - counting those seven equally space individual sound effects is pretty simple and sets the counting-tempo for the entrance of Water's bass-line which is also in 7/4 - spilt into 3 and 4 - "One Two Three One Two Three Four"... the actual rhythm is in triplets (each quarter note is subdivided into 3 eighth notes), so to sound-out the counting you would go "One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a One-and-a Two-and-a Three-and-a Four-and-a" etc. Water's actually plays eight notes in each bar, with two notes being played on the second beat, like this:
 
1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  1 and a  2 and a  3 and a  4 and  a
Dum     Da   Da Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum     Dum    
 
During Parry's solo (and Gilmour's) it changes to common time.
Enlightening!
 
But wat's the difference between 7/4 and 7/8? I mean, how can you hear the difference?
 
Actually, I think I know. Clap or tap or stomp to 'Money' and figure it out by using this rule of thumb: every clap or whatnot is a quarter-note. For more ease, play the bass riff in 4/4, clap to it, then play it in the original meter, use the rule of thumb, and there you got it! It's in 7/8. So, whoever tells you it's in 7/4, then it's some person who really likes fancy stuff and enjoys the idea of confusing himself Big smile .
But I don't play bassCry   Tongue
 
So what are you really saying, it's the same?
Simple answer is it depends.
 
The top number tells you the number of beats in the bar, and in both cases there would be "7", the bottom number tells you what type of note to count "4" is crotchets (quarter-notes) and "8" is quavers (eighth-notes) - so from purely a listening point of view they are the same - 7 beats in a bar. If all else were equal and one was played at twice the tempo as the other to maintain the number of beats per minute as equal then you would not tell the difference.
 
What distinguishes 7/4 from 7/8 is down to how each bar is phrased and accented and which time signature can be uses to notate the tune clearest on a musical score. This basically adds up to how it feels - Money feels like it is 4/4 time with a missing eighth note rather than 6/8 time with an extra one... this feeling is heightened in the solo's when the time signature changes to 4/4 time - even though the beats-per-minute doesn't change it feels like those sections are going at a faster tempo because the number of quarter-notes in a bar has almost halved (ie the bars have gotten shorter so we have more bars-per-minute) - this apparent change of pace would not happen if it went from 7/8 to 4/4 for example since the number of quarter-notes in 7/8 is 3½.
 
To hear this you have to listen to what Mason is playing beneath Water's bass-line and Gilmour's solo and where he hits kick-drum and snare in each bar. You will notice that he doesn't suddenly start drumming at twice the tempo during the solo, even though the song appears to speed up considerably at that point, he just shifts where he accents within the bar.
 
The other reason why people say it is 7/4 and not 7/8 is that placement of the second "Da" in Water's bass-line (the one on the third tripletted eighth note in the second beat) ... in 7/8 time using Andrey's method of clapping quarter-notes that "Da" hangs between claps rather than on one.
 


Edited by Dean - March 09 2012 at 19:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 19:33
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Simple answer is it depends.
 
The top number tells you the number of beats in the bar, and in both cases there would be "7", the bottom number tells you what type of note to count "4" is crotchets (quarter-notes) and "8" is quavers (eighth-notes) - so from purely a listening point of view they are the same - 7 beats in a bar. If all else were equal and one was played at twice the tempo as the other to maintain the number of beats per minute as equal then you would not tell the difference.
 
What distinguishes 7/4 from 7/8 is down to how each bar is phrased and accented and which time signature can be uses to notate the tune clearest on a musical score. This basically adds up to how it feels - Money feels like it is 4/4 time with a missing eighth note rather than 6/8 time with an extra one... this feeling is heightened in the solo's when the time signature changes to 4/4 time - even though the beats-per-minute doesn't change it feels like those sections are going at a faster tempo because the number of quarter-notes in a bar has almost halved (ie the bars have gotten shorter so we have more bars-per-minute) - this apparent change of pace would not happen if it went from 7/8 to 4/4 for example since the number of quarter-notes in 7/8 is 3½.
 
To hear this you have to listen to what Mason is playing beneath Water's bass-line and Gilmour's solo and where he hits kick-drum and snare in each bar. You will notice that he doesn't suddenly start drumming at twice the tempo during the solo, even though the song appears to speed up considerably at that point, he just shifts where he accents within the bar.
 
The other reason why people say it is 7/4 and not 7/8 is that placement of the second "Da" in Water's bass-line (the one on the third tripletted eighth note in the second beat) ... in 7/8 time using Andrey's method of clapping quarter-notes that "Da" hangs between claps rather than on one.
 

Maybe you've misread what I meant, and I apologize for the poorness of my previous explanation. What I meant was that I heard this: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR, ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR. I never even gave any thought to the triplets.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 19:39
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


Maybe you've misread what I meant, and I apologize for the poorness of my previous explanation. What I meant was that I heard this: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR, ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR. I never even gave any thought to the triplets.
Confused that does not add up to 7 so it is neither 7/4 or 7/8
 
Then maybe you didn't read my post where I pointed out the use of triplets and perhaps "So, whoever tells you it's in 7/4, then it's some person who really likes fancy stuff and enjoys the idea of confusing himself " was not directed at me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 19:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


Maybe you've misread what I meant, and I apologize for the poorness of my previous explanation. What I meant was that I heard this: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR, ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR. I never even gave any thought to the triplets.
Confused that does not add up to 7 so it is neither 7/4 or 7/8
 
Then maybe you didn't read my post where I pointed out the use of triplets and perhaps "So, whoever tells you it's in 7/4, then it's some person who really likes fancy stuff and enjoys the idea of confusing himself " was not directed at me.

NVM. Give me some time.

I think I see what you are saying. "ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh-THREE-and-uh-FOUR-and-uh-FIVE-and-uh-SIX-and-uh-SE-ven-uh." Did I get it right?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 09 2012 at 19:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 20:01
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


Maybe you've misread what I meant, and I apologize for the poorness of my previous explanation. What I meant was that I heard this: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR, ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR. I never even gave any thought to the triplets.
Confused that does not add up to 7 so it is neither 7/4 or 7/8
 
Then maybe you didn't read my post where I pointed out the use of triplets and perhaps "So, whoever tells you it's in 7/4, then it's some person who really likes fancy stuff and enjoys the idea of confusing himself " was not directed at me.

NVM. Give me some time.

I think I see what you are saying. "ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh-THREE-and-uh-FOUR-and-uh-FIVE-and-uh-SIX-and-uh-SE-ven-uh." Did I get it right?
Yup - the "ONE" "TWO" THREE" "FOUR" are quarter-notes making 7 quarter notes in the bar, or 21 tripletted eighth notes.
 
 
And, sorry, in your explanation I missed that you didn't put an "and" after the FOUR and assumed you were only counting one bar not two - I still maintain that 7/8 misses the third note Water's plays in each bar - of course you can play it that way and it would sound "okay", but it would not match what Waters plays. (or what both Waters and Gilmour have said about the track)
 
 
 
/edit - Earlier I said the bar is split 3+4, making it: "ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh-THREE-and-uh-ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh-THREE-and-uh-FOUR-and-uh"


Edited by Dean - March 09 2012 at 20:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 06:37
Thanks for explaining, Dean.
 
 
I'm not sure I completely understand it, then again, I'm not a musician and I've got VERY little music theory, so that might be the reason I don't, but I'm definetely wiser after reading your explanation then I was before.

Edited by The Bearded Bard - March 10 2012 at 06:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 06:44
And what about the 12/8 of Astronomy domine ? Tongue
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:05
It started with a question about the definition of Prog-Rock, and it has devolved now into a musical mathematics lesson.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:09
^Sorry for contributing to thatGeek

Edited by The Bearded Bard - March 10 2012 at 08:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 08:47
Oh, I don't complain, I'm just an observer. 
I only hope we could go further and discuss quarter tones in classical Northern Indian music or the various modes in improvised Arabian music (I tried to read a book on this last subject and went lost after 40 pages on a total of 300 pages).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 09:22
Well most of us are musically illiterate. So are many of the musicians who come up with all this sh*t. So who cares really.Simon Firth who was one of the best rock cooentators lacked formal musical training and admitted to not even knowing exactly what harmony, beat, riff  or melody exactly are and used the terms loosley in his work.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 09:33
"Music for nerds" is a good definition for prog. It totally justifies what's happening on this thread.
Smile              Smile     Smile                     Smile                 Smile             Smile        Smile Smile          Smile                  Smile    Smile  
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