ELP 5.1 remixes by Steven Wilson. - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Capt Fongsby View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2012 at 15:01

tarkusnj wrote:

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

tarkusnj wrote:

I guess this is the wrong forum for anyone who knows sound quality.

Wow, you're really off to a good start; Insulting one member specifically and the forum in general in only two posts... Can't wait to see how you're going to top that.

(Somewhat) back on topic:

As for cd sound quality, in my opinion the earliest cd masterings are almost always the best. And this most certainly applies to ELP.

S/T, Tarkus, Trilogy: The first West German Sonopress cds from the 80s, referred to as the "Yellow Manticore" pressings (and now rare as hen's teeth), are clearly superior to other masterings. And they are excellent sounding. (The MFSLs of Tarkus and Trilogy are also great, and I'd rank them on 2nd place.)

Brain Salad Surgery: The original Atlantic cd mastering, done by Barry Diament in the 80s, sounds great.

Pictures at an Exhibition: Haven't heard any great mastering of this one, but the original Atlantic is not too shabby. Just a bit muffled sounding, probably due to bad tapes being used.

The newer masterings (Victory/Sanctuary, Japanese K2 and K2HD, etc) are generally suffering from overt brightness, noise reduction and/or dynamic compression, and are not to my taste. YMMV, of course.

(And I'm not splitting hairs.)

Edited by Capt Fongsby - March 17 2012 at 15:07

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2012 at 15:18

Not having heard the remaster I suspect pictures is best appreciated in its original gory glory.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

richardh

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Posted: March 18 2012 at 03:45

Slartibartfast wrote:

Not having heard the remaster I suspect pictures is best appreciated in its original gory glory.

Ever since I got the DVD of them playing at the Lyceum (well it VHS to start with) I've always preferred that version to the Newcastle City Hall version. The album is just too 'clean' sounding for my taste although the performances are spot on. No amount or remastering will make it any better to my ears.

richardh

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Posted: March 18 2012 at 03:54

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast] [QUOTE=richardh]There have been a load of bad remsasterings of Brain Salad Surgery. My favourite album as well. The DVD audio is not very good either sadly.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

I do however like the recent deluxe edition of Welcome Back My Friends which includes nearly all of BSS played live. There is a also a 'straight from boards' live version of KE9 on the bonus disc of The Ultimate Collection whicn blows all the other versions I've heard clean out the water.

Admittedly it is all a matter of taste and opinion. My equipment is average at best not high spec at all and my hearing is probably the same! 'Poor judgement' I don't know but I guess I like the rawer live sound rather than (to my ears) something that can end up being a little bit anti-septic.What was done to BSS in digital format has been depressing. The best I ever heard it was a German manufactured cassette that I bought in the seventies and played back on my Dad's Bang and Olofsen Hi-FI

NotAProghead View Drop Down

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Posted: March 18 2012 at 09:15

^ Bang and Olafsen is an expensive toy, sounding no better than any $100-$200 minisystem.

No wonder why German manufactured cassette was the best you've heard. LOL

Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

richardh

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Posted: March 18 2012 at 15:25

NotAProghead wrote:

^ Bang and Olafsen is an expensive toy, sounding no better than any $100-$200 minisystem.

No wonder why German manufactured cassette was the best you've heard. LOL

I don't know about that. 40 years ago with a pair of headphones it sounded pretty good. Will admit I'm no expert though.

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 18 2012 at 18:49

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

richardh wrote:

[QUOTE=tarkusnj]< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast] [QUOTE=richardh]There have been a load of bad remsasterings of Brain Salad Surgery. My favourite album as well. The DVD audio is not very good either sadly.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

NotAProghead View Drop Down

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Posted: March 18 2012 at 19:28

tarkusnj wrote:

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

...................................................
The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

Is it a big problem to switch the sound to stereo and stop hating this DVD-Audio? Confused

Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 05:40

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.
[/QUOTE]

Is it a big problem to switch the sound to stereo and stop hating this DVD-Audio? Confused

Zombywoof

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 08:00

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

Is it a big problem to switch the sound to stereo and stop hating this DVD-Audio? Confused

[/QUOTE]

I accidently quoted "richardh's post regarding hating the DVD-Audio version of BSS as I LOVE the DVD-A version of BSS.
As far as the downmix of BSS DVD-A to stereo, I ripped the 6 individual 96/24 wavs myself and mixed them to stereo then burned them to cd. The sound quality FAR surpasses and previous official stereo "remaster".
[/QUOTE]

I made myself a rip of the vinyl. Sure its a little crackly, but its better than the Shout! Factory version. Whatever happened to Karn Evil 9 on that one?

Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ...

earlyprog

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 08:40

NotAProghead wrote:

^ Bang and Olafsen is an expensive toy, sounding no better than any $100-$200 minisystem.

No wonder why German manufactured cassette was the best you've heard. LOL

IMO, you won't find better speakers than B&O's BeoLab 5 (seriously!) - and probably not more expensive either

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 09:35

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

Hi tarkusnj,

When the original poster slammed the Brain Salad Surgery DVD-Audio, I bit my lip so hard, drawing blood, not to say anything, as, arguing an opinion would be fruitless. However, the BSS DVD-Audio is in fact breath-taking, so I spent the weekend searching for a review I read many years ago about the actual process that gave us BSS on DVD-Audio. Sadly I guess the tech review was so old I couldn't find it. So with regret all I have is an opinion to offer. Which is, I would have no clue as to why the original poster was so negative. BSS on DVD-Audio is perhaps one of the finest high resolution 5.1 remixing projects ever done. I do have the DVD-Audio BSS dics and a decent 5.1 system, and all I can do is rant like a lunatic, singing its praises. The article went into great detail on how each original track of the multi-track was meticulously converted to digital on A/D converters costing hundreds of thousands. This work was a technical masterpiece as well as a labor of love by the re-mixing engineer. I sure wish I could find that damn review. It explains all clearly & in great detail.

Suffice to say, I will keep and cherish and more importantly, PLAY, the BSS DVD-Audio until the day I die.

I hope the new re-mix of Tarkus comes out half as good.

Cheers!

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 09:44

Slartibartfast wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast

To the group:

There has been much heated debate as to the BSS DVD-Audio recently. I do think my esteemed colleague

Slartibartfast has set the record straight with the above post.

Hey slarti-baby,

Did you forget where the "delete post" button is?

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:44

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

Hi tarkusnj,

Cheers!

Like I said, no comparison between the HI-REZ BSS DVD-A and ANY remaster of the album. Now if anyone would like to hear the downmix to stereo from the 96/24 6-channel wavs to compare to anything they currently have in stereo, let me know if you would like a sample in 44/16 cd format. Then tou will see with your ears.

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:21

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

Hi tarkusnj,

The one thing we learned from your original comment is that some people don't really care about high fidelity. A preference was stated for "Welcome Back" sound quality over the original BSS album. Noboday can argue "listening experience" as everybody's ears are different, but certainly there is no argument over the sound quality and fidelity of the DVD-Audio 5.1 project vs album or prior CD release. When the poster(who you kinda slammed - that's ok, you are from New Jersey.

) expressed his preference for the live Welcome Back, it was clear that high-fidelity is not important to him. That brings up my point here:

Though most music listeners enjoy hi-fi sound and will try to upgrade when possible, some people judge the sound quality based on a whole different criteria, I can't criticise them, as it is their preference, but I can not explain it as it defies logic and what we know of sound.

It is generous of you to offer the 5.1 DVD-Audio 2.0 down mix for people to compare. I can't imagine why any ELP fan would not want the BSS 5.1 DVD-Audio experience. It is a game changer.

P.S. I did time in New Jersey, North of Edison, just under the NY State Line. I sure miss those Deli sandwiches.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 13:52

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

The one thing we learned from your original comment is that some people don't really care about high fidelity.

Yup, this is a "progressive" forum. Let's all break out the ipods!

richardh

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 16:49

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

Why on earth do you imagine that I havn't heard it?

As I said its just an opinion. The DVD audio version is a watered down version of the original album. Nice version of Jersulalem because the vocals are less distorted but thats all I like about it.

Do you understand the concept of opinion/taste etc?

Edited by richardh - March 19 2012 at 16:51

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 17:33

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

richardh wrote:

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

Why on earth do you imagine that I havn't heard it?

As I said its just an opinion. The DVD audio version is a watered down version of the original album. Nice version of Jersulalem because the vocals are less distorted but thats all I like about it.

Do you understand the concept of opinion/taste etc?

Yes, I can understand your opinion. Lets move on.

sturoc

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Posted: March 20 2012 at 21:22

I have never gotten into the 5.1 realm. Maybe due to growing up with stereo imaging and Lps were fine. Since the music when performed onstage was usually mixed in stereo thru the mains. Studio tracks were recorded and mixed down in Stereo.
So unless the original was meant to be 5.1 it seems a bit pointless. I always listened to tracks as if I had the band in front of me onstage. 5.1 surround is abit artificial when coming from this philosophy.
As for the audio quality if a format can come as close as possible to being in the control room or as the band played live then that is the ultimate listening format.

BUT the debate here especially gets so spun off since a listener is very subjective due to their own ears, equipment and listening environs.

infandous

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Posted: March 21 2012 at 12:22

Hi Fidelity is an expensive hobby. A roommate of mine in college had a very nice system, and I would play my CD's on it every chance I got. There is no question there is a big difference between what I have now and what he had then (with mine being cheap crap in comparison). But frankly, I love the music, not the recording, if that makes sense. I can hear all the instruments and nothing sounds particularly bad (well, some of the CD's are from source material that wasn't so great to begin with, but that stuff usually sounds even worse on a high end system).

Dennis, I just realized that my girlfriend (who lives with me) has a 5.1 stereo system that we keep forgetting to set up.........I'm now determined to get that thing set up and give some serious listening to the few 5.1 recordings I have (mostly Porcupine Tree, since a few of the albums were re-released with the 5.1).