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Does Rate Your Music Have Prog Right?
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CPicard View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 20 2012 at 17:24
Originally posted by Textbook

I also find Cpicard's notion that mathematics is unfair quite concerning and probably just illustrates that classic  fundamental clash between how we try to perceive things and how they are.


I've been a student in history: what I learned is that everything is unfair. And when I say "is", I really mean it: it's not just that we can perceive everything as unfair, it's also that everything is unfair.
Excuse me, sir, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, Neptune, god of the Sea?
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Life is never fair and to expect it to be is a really big waste of time.
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Posts: 1592 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2012 at 18:47
Meh...I belong to both sites. The prejudices and priorities that are revealed in ratings there are as germane as those here. Which is why I don't count on a single site for an objective opinion, but rather an amalgam of different sites. And then, of course, my own opinion, which trumps any site. Wink
Please pay a visit to my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music reviews, literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Posts: 11529 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2012 at 19:41
I agree with Textbook in that such ratings ARE important and DO carry weight -- look at what sells TV ads, for example.  However, who are we then to question the ratings?  Unless they're "rigged" somehow (which I won't rule out), they are simply a reflection of preferences among the people who care enough to vote.  In that sense, they are "true".  

Does that mean these are the "best" albums?  Of course not.  But by definition, those ratings are an indicator of quality, at least among the demographic that frequents that site (and based on OK Computer being the #1 album of all time on that site, I have some mental idea of what that demographic is).  "Quality"... there's a heavy concept that one could argue all day over... but for the sake of simplicity I'll define it as what is considered good by a consensus.  Consensus of whom?  The people who voted.  And the bigger that pool of voters, that sample size, the more reliable the ratings are.


Edited by HolyMoly - March 20 2012 at 19:43
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Posts: 29369 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2012 at 20:00
Originally posted by Textbook

I see a whole lot of people dismissing this and saying "it doesn't matter" and whoa you do not understand how culture works on the internet.
 
Sites like this are of huge importance and the ranking of the albums *really* matters because sites and forums like this are now how a large number of people decide what to listen to. When you see an album you've never heard of rated extremely well on RYM or PA, the normal response is "Say, maybe I should give it a go."

Note that is NOT the same as popularity. Justin Bieber is immensely popular and his records have some of the worst ratings on the site. RYM's current best album of all time is OK Computer by Radiohead and its top album of 2012 so far is Weather Systems by Anathema, A PROGRESSIVE ROCK ARTIST. The experimental rock act Swans is at #2 and Gazpacho, another prog act is at #3. So this "We'd all be listening to Gotye" notion is complete horsesh*t sorry. The closest things to pop stars in the *entire top 100* for 2012 so far are Bruce Springsteen, Sinead O'Connor and Van Halen. Those are the only commercial names there.
 
The ratings do not reflect popularity, they reflect a level of respect. This isn't Billboard.
Of course it is popularity. It's just what is popular of the demographic that uses RYM, just as ours is what is popular to the demographic that uses PA. If all Bieber fans used RYM then his albums would have better RYM ratings - it's nothing to do with quality or respect even if OK Computer is its all time best album (today) - it's simply currently the all time best album for the average RYM user (should such a chimera exist), who by some far-from-strange un-coincidence simply don't like Bieber. What you have with RYM is a demographic that is today's version of the same demographic that made Progressive Rock so popular in the 1970 ... fairly bright and literate teenage and young adult males (ie college students) who listen to indie more than they do mainstream, just like I did in the 70s, and people 10 years younger than me did in the 80s (etc etc.).
 


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Posts: 3771 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2012 at 20:01
I do think lists of albums and ratings are a very useful tool to get to know music. In the end, one must begin somewhere, and usually seeing the ratings is the place to start. Then, you can listen to the best rated albums, see if you like them, and then search for similar things, etc. You don't have to agree with everything the list has (that would be just about impossible), but use the information, and use your own judgement about it. I used PA's top 10 to start digging prog, and then I've used the ratings whenever I'm interested in discovering a new artist... and most of the time, the best rated albums from each artist happen to be the ones I like the most (though there can alwasy be some exceptions).
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Dean: Your response is completely correct. RYM does reflect a demographic, not all of humanity. However it's generally a demographic of people who take music seriously and listen to a lot of different kinds. Genre junkies are on genre specific sites like PA and casual music fans generally don't spend much time reading and writing about it on sites like RYM. So it's a demographic worth noting imo.
Can anyone have a look at RYM's top 100 of all time and honestly say that a significant number of them are terrible? (Without being a contrary asshat just to ruin my point, it would have to be genuine opinion.)
 
 
I do not like all 100 of these albums (OK Computer isn't even Radiohead's best album let alone the best of all time, but the list is waaaaaay more right (representative of what I hold to be quality in music) than wrong. Would anyone not say that?
 
Here's the top ten all genres to give an idea for those who can't be bothered looking at the full 100 linked to above.
 
10. Led Zeppelin 4 by Led Zeppelin
9. Kid A by Radiohead
8. Highway 61 Revisited by Bob Dylan
7. Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles
6. Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd
5. Abbey Road by The Beatles
4. The Velvet Underground by The Velvet Underground
3. Revolver by The Beatles
2. The Dark Side Of The Moon by Pink Floyd
1. OK Computer by Radiohead
 
Now this list isn't what I would put. For example, I find White Light White Heat superior to The Velvet Underground,
 
BUT I don't look at any of these and go "WTF? ARE YOU INSANE?" That pretty much goes for the full 100 too. I think the site works in getting as close as we realistically can to a definitive list of what is and isn't good in music. And of course it gets revised with time. When I started using the site two years ago, Revolver was #1. It's good for it to be dynamic.
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Posts: 29369 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2012 at 03:19
Originally posted by Textbook

Dean: Your response is completely correct. RYM does reflect a demographic, not all of humanity. However it's generally a demographic of people who take music seriously and listen to a lot of different kinds. Genre junkies are on genre specific sites like PA and casual music fans generally don't spend much time reading and writing about it on sites like RYM. So it's a demographic worth noting imo.
The demographic is not one homogenous group of polygenre music fans, it's a collection of people of similar age and social background (a demographic) who are subdivided into groups of genre-specific genre junkies. What you have in any single genre-specific chart on RYM is the chart of the average ratings each genre-specific group since people from other genre-specific groups will not have rated albums of genres they don't listen to (obviously) - this skews many of the charts where the artist is "popular" with many genre-specific groups of people, such as Pink Floyd and The Beatles (or even Radiohead). Your assertion that genre specific music junkies don't use RYM isn't correct, they do. And that means the overall demographic is bound to be all-encompassing, so if you fit the general non music-specific demographic of people who use RYM, then there will be a sub-set of people on RYM who fit your genre-specific profile and therefore it is worth noting to you.
Originally posted by Textbook

Can anyone have a look at RYM's top 100 of all time and honestly say that a significant number of them are terrible? (Without being a contrary asshat just to ruin my point, it would have to be genuine opinion.)
 
 
I do not like all 100 of these albums (OK Computer isn't even Radiohead's best album let alone the best of all time, but the list is waaaaaay more right (representative of what I hold to be quality in music) than wrong. Would anyone not say that?
Of course it is right for you if you fit the demographic profile of RYM users - a Bieber fan does not so the chart would be wrong for them. It would also be wrong for people who only listen to Punk Rock or Hip Hop. Those charts are still filtered and rated by genre specialist - people who only rate R&B or Classical Music do not influence the Progressive Rock chart, and because those people are lower in numbers compared to those who rate Rock their most popular albums do not appear on an all-time chart. For example create a customised hip hop chart and the #1 album only has 6351 ratings compared to OK Computer's 21784 ratings... numbers mean something, the clever part is knowing what they mean.
 
Originally posted by Textbook

Here's the top ten all genres to give an idea for those who can't be bothered looking at the full 100 linked to above.
 
10. Led Zeppelin 4 by Led Zeppelin
9. Kid A by Radiohead
8. Highway 61 Revisited by Bob Dylan
7. Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles
6. Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd
5. Abbey Road by The Beatles
4. The Velvet Underground by The Velvet Underground
3. Revolver by The Beatles
2. The Dark Side Of The Moon by Pink Floyd
1. OK Computer by Radiohead
 
Now this list isn't what I would put. For example, I find White Light White Heat superior to The Velvet Underground,
 
BUT I don't look at any of these and go "WTF? ARE YOU INSANE?" That pretty much goes for the full 100 too. I think the site works in getting as close as we realistically can to a definitive list of what is and isn't good in music. And of course it gets revised with time. When I started using the site two years ago, Revolver was #1. It's good for it to be dynamic.
That is because you fit a subset of the demographic, not that the overall demographic fits you.
 
As I said in my first post - it's a popularity contest - VU's eponymous album is more popular than White Light White Heat, it does not mean it is better or superior just as OK Computer is more popular than Kid A or Amnesiac or The Bends it does not mean it is better or superior.


Edited by Dean - March 21 2012 at 08:31


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Originally posted by Textbook

RYM as the web's foremost music opinion aggregator is the closest thing we have to an official word on what people think of music. (Of course it's not actually official though and can still be criticised or argued with.)
 
So here's the current top ten and bottom ten prog albums of all time according to RYM. Is it pretty accurate or way off? How good a job does it do at reflecting the status of music?

Bottom 10
 
10. The Album - Caravan
9. Giant For A Day - Gentle Giant
8. A Propos De - Ange
7. Out Of Reach - Can
6. Real To Reel - Starcastle
5. Open Your Eyes- Yes (frequently subtitled And Close Your Ears)
4. Pleasure & The Pain - Saga
3. Free As A Bird - Supertramp
2. In The Hotseat- Emerson, Lake & Palmer
1. Moonchild Variations - Screaming Gorilla
 
Top 10
 
10. Selling England By The Pound - Genesis
9. Meddle - Pink Floyd
8. The Wall - Pink Floyd
7. Close To The Edge - Yes
6. Tago Mago - Can
5. Red - King Crimson
4. Animals - Pink Floyd
3. In The Court Of The Crimson King - King Crimson
2. Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd
1. The Dark Side Of The Moon - Pink Floyd
 
What, no Atom Heart Mother?
 
Seriously though, now I've typed that out I think we can say the answer to the inital question is probably "no", if only because you don't need five Pink Floyd albums in there. The list may reflect the *reality* of what people think about progressive rock because for many people Pink Floyd is about the only prog act they'll ever listen to, but it's not a balanced/accurate picture.
 
Amusing to see Can and Yes make the best and worst albums list.
 
I never heard of Screaming Gorilla before but you can be sure I'll check them out now.
 
Well if their top 10 list is quite debatable (I've got no probs with it, but maybe too much Floyd), it's also quite acceptable, buit their bottom 10 list is definitely closer to the truth... even if Floyd's AMLOR should've found a spot in that list.... what that tells me is that they are a lot of Floyd fanboys on RYM TongueWink
 
although, let's face it, there are dozens of prog album technically worse than those, but definitely more obscurre... like most algorithms on rating sites, the more ratings an album gets, the better chances it sees itself as a valid candidate for lists (tops or bottoms)...
 
so if some obscure Eskimo prog band makes the worst prog album ever, it'll never have a chance to vbreak the bottom 100 list, because no albums have crossed southbound the artic circle.
 
 
Sooo, I wouldn't lose sleep over such a puny matter.Wink
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Dean

That is because you fit a subset of the demographic, not that the overal demographic fits you.
... 
 
Sociology 101 ... first day of class in your first day in college!
 
No matter how much you don't like it ... there it is and you are!
 
I did not like that class, you can tell, but managed to get a B on it because of a paper I wrote on the "cynicism of the surrealists" and their influence in society ... and I had Luis Bunuel examples and Dali examples that later became "real" ... ohh yes ... Le Phantome de la Liberte! ... how can we ever forget! You're still a number!
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When it comes to college classes I was pretty much driven crazy by structural analysis.
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Given that seven of their top ten are also in our top ten, it seems pretty accurate to me, given that it is a different site with different purpose and different participants.  We have three Pink Floyd to their five, and the same two King Crimson.  They clearly like Can better than Van der Graaf Generator.  Neither of these lists are my own top ten, although I prefer ours to theirs.  Such ratings can give general information about the preferences of a particular population and can be useful to a degree.  If a person comes to either site knowing little or nothing about Prog but wants to explore, they would be given much the same advice.  There is an illusion when it comes to absolutes, such as what is THE best.  Look at our top ten for example.  In the few years since I have been involved with the Archives, the number one slot has shifted between Close to the Edge, Thick as a Brick, Selling England by the Pound, and Wish You Were Here, while each one has remained in the top four the entire time.  So which ONE is best?  None of them.  Can we call ALL of them the best?  I say we can.  Aren't there other Prog sites out there?  What do they say?  I think it may be interesting to compare, but it seems pointless to me to split hairs on which is better because one's own favorite is not the favorite of another person or another group.
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The "the more ratings an album gets, the more ratings an album gets" thing is true. RYM rankings are also a measure of fame or infamy, not just popularity, especially when it comes to worst lists.
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Posts: 29369 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2012 at 18:29
Originally posted by Textbook

The "the more ratings an album gets, the more ratings an album gets" thing is true.
While your statement is undoubtedly true to some small extent for an established list, that isn't what Hugues said.
 
The algorithm uses weighted averages that weights the average rating based on the number of reviews - if an album didn't have a high number of ratings it wouldn't have appeared in the top of the chart to attract more ratings to put it into the top of the chart... hence your assertion is only partially true once the chart has been established and begins to influence itself by simply bring those albums to the attention of people who will now rate them because they saw them on a top 100 list.
 
You can demonstrate this using the RYM (or PA) custom chart options - choose a set of options that do not fit a predictable profile and what you'll see there is a chart that is not affected by "popularity" bias (since it is a virgin chart that could not have influenced itself) - the albums that are top in that new chart will have more ratings than those lower down the chart - that's what Hugues meant. The same is true at the bottom of the chart - there will be worse albums with lower ratings, but they won't have as many ratings as the ones that appear on the chart - the algorithm effectively filters the unpopular unpopular albums (ie the obscure albums that only the artist and their mums have rated) out of the running.
 
Originally posted by Textbook

RYM rankings are also a measure of fame or infamy, not just popularity, especially when it comes to worst lists.
Fame or infamy is the same thing as popularity - none of them are a measure of quality or goodness, they are just a reflection of how many other people like it too (or dislike too in the case of infamy or unpopularity ... the irony that an album that more people dislike is therefore a popular choice by definition).


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Well, it includes three of my personal favorite prog albums so I can't complain too much. I do think if you were to compile a top 100 of each RYM would have a little more variety-more international, avant-garde acts-but I don't know that that would necessarily make it better.
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Well, I like all of the albums in the top 10, if that means anything!
Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ...
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A couple of points about RYM:

- Albums with more ratings get a better mark (or if they are bad albums, they get a worse mark). I guess that is as a bonus for statistical significance (an album with 100 ratings might have a better mark than one with 10.000 just as an statistical deviation of his "pure mark")

- Votes of people that vote lots of albums count more.

- Top 10 lists of human beings usually contain very few repeated artists; probably because psychologically we give a bonus to  the best album of an artist... so we pick one album of each of our favorite artists. But "best album" is subjective and changes from person to person. RYM doesn't mind putting 5 pink floyd albums if users voted so.

- It is a top 10 list ... take it with a grain of salt. It is much more interesting to see with 'top albums' you haven't listened yet. RYM is an useful tool to discover new music.
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(quote attributed to different people including Winston Churchill, I don't know who was the real first one).
 
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Originally posted by Gerinski

Statistics are like a drunk with a lampost: used more for support than for illumination.
(quote attributed to different people including Winston Churchill, I don't know who was the real first one).
 


I think the problem is not the method, mathematics, quantity, numbers etc. but what we made of those, how we interpreted them.
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Posts: 2424 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2012 at 15:42
Originally posted by rdtprog

Originally posted by Gerinski

Statistics are like a drunk with a lampost: used more for support than for illumination.
(quote attributed to different people including Winston Churchill, I don't know who was the real first one).
 


I think the problem is not the method, mathematics, quantity, numbers etc. but what we made of those, how we interpreted them.
 
Sure, this is captured by this other quote (not mine of course):
 
"We must be careful not to confuse data with the abstractions we use to analyze them"
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