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Prog & Politics

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Poll Question: I love prog, and consider myself to be:
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37 [60.66%]
11 [18.03%]
13 [21.31%]
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote stonebeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog & Politics
    Posted: April 06 2012 at 22:42
I don't know about politics much, but I do know I never really agreed with Hitler, if that's any help.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2012 at 01:51
Originally posted by dennismoore

 
By the way, the explanation of "scaredy cat" was for the "kids" here, not you.  Your writing speaks for itself.  It is my writing, I worry about, I am proudly out of touch with today's younger generation, I don't understand their slang and sometimes I worry that they won't get mine, hence the clarification.  By the way, when the f**k did "bad" become the new good???Confused

I think Bad became the new good with Michael Jackson's album Tongue
 
Originally posted by dennismoore

First, I mispoke about Gazza.  Sorry.  It is hard to discuss the MiddleEast without constantly running to google something.
But I think my error on the Gazza territory just underscores the fact that Americans are sick of the fighting and it is now basically impossible to keep track of all the factions and issues.  But, my bad, I misstated events in Gazza completely.

The only real reason I know all of this stuff is because I live here. LOL I really don't expect anyone anywhere to know that much about a place the size of NJ, particularly when it's an entire Ocean and a sea away. Israelis for some reason tend to get really heated when foreigners don't know the entire state of the Middle Eastern conflict.  

And yes, I think the entire world is tired of the constant and rather idiotic (well it's easy to call it idiotic it's just not that easy to fix it) bickering.
 
Originally posted by dennismoore

I do hold out hope in the MiddleEast for one other reason:   The imbalance of wealth of the Arab World and their indifference to the Palastinians had been perpetuated by allowing hatred of America & Israel (unchecked terrorism & religious fundamentalism).  The World lent a blind eye while most Arab Nations had oh say 100 Arabs who owned everything and they would rely on Islamic Radicalism - Hatred of the West, to distract their peoples so the average Arab would not question why he is so poor in a land so rich?.  Why of course: It is the Great Satan! Israel & The West!   That game is over since 911.  And The USA won't tolerate that sh*t from Egypt or any other Arab Nation. So..... eventually the Arab Nations will need to address their century old neglected problems.  This is why we have had the Arab Spring in so many Arab lands.  They can't blame the evil USA anymore.  So Arabs will eventually have to stop blaming Jews & Westeners and realize that they must fix their own problems, which a Palestinian State is clearly one of them.
 
The current Syrian slaughter/shame is an Arab problem not a Western one.  The mess in Egypt is not a Zionist plot, but simply an Arab mess.  It is time for the Arab World to get its house in order and stop blaming The West & The Jews.
 
I think it is inevitable as the American government learned a tough lesson on 911 and now knows it can't afford to tolerate the same MiddleEastern hateful anti-American rhetoric that those Arab dictatorships flourished on for decades.
 
They will finally need to consider Peace.  Who would have thought that???
 

All revolutions start with good intentions. Well some of them. Well the Arab spring revolutions started with good intentions. But the state currently in Libya and particularly worrying to me, Egypt, doesn't make me too hopeful about the state of these countries. It seems that might go from fairly rich dictatorships to fundamentalist (and also tribal in Libya) Islamic regimes. It still needs to be seen whether fundamentalist (or near-fundamentalist) parties such as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt actually take over the country, but it looks bad. Really really really bad. I don't that even Israelis understand how bad. 

What begun from the intellectuals in Egypt simply formed moved away and morphed into something different- something dangerous. No real democracy can exist when half of the country is under the poverty line, and mostly un-alphabetic.
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2012 at 22:23
Originally posted by frippism


All revolutions start with good intentions. Well some of them. Well the Arab spring revolutions started with good intentions. But the state currently in Libya and particularly worrying to me, Egypt, doesn't make me too hopeful about the state of these countries. It seems that might go from fairly rich dictatorships to fundamentalist (and also tribal in Libya) Islamic regimes. It still needs to be seen whether fundamentalist (or near-fundamentalist) parties such as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt actually take over the country, but it looks bad. Really really really bad. I don't that even Israelis understand how bad. 

What begun from the intellectuals in Egypt simply formed moved away and morphed into something different- something dangerous. No real democracy can exist when half of the country is under the poverty line, and mostly un-alphabetic.


I think you are 100% correct  (about the Arab spring). If you are worried about a religious fundamentalist regime taking over in the Arab nations, please do look here at my country, the USA, as well.  One party is running on a fundamentalist platform that would make the Islamic Brotherhood proud!  So.... I am just sick all all the stupidity of the masses, so I say "bring it on" Bring On Armagedon!!!!!!!!!!!   If we all had our Holy Wars, do you think you and I would be on the same side?Wink

I was just reading how in Egypt the Islamic Brotherhood had said they would not field a candidate for President, now they are. But you know? With so many religious lunatics running around in my country wanting to destroy civil rights and bring on more wars, I don't have time for religious crazies 4 thousand miles away!

Seriously, as we mentioned, the fact that the USA is no longer turning a blind eye while Arab dictators allow religious extremism to flourish in their lands. I wouldn't worry too much over there in Israel. If any Arab country goes extreme, their leader might find himself in the same predicament as Saddam Hussein found himself.

One way or another, the Arab nations will need to find solutions on their own, it sure won't be easy, but the old game of religious extremism & intolerance just won't work like it used to.










"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PyramidMeetsTheEye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2012 at 14:15
 
wow im happy that many prog rock fans are lefties Big smile sweeet 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PyramidMeetsTheEye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2012 at 14:16
haha the best think is when members get a little of topic here how did you come to the arab revolution again Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2012 at 20:15
Originally posted by PyramidMeetsTheEye

haha the best think is when members get a little of topic here how did you come to the arab revolution again Tongue


Hi PyramidMeetsTheEye, Smile

You lot probably knew this already but I just found out that the guy who looks like Robert Fripp, but denies it (frippism)
is a jolly good chap to chat with about international politics, as he is quite intelligent & open minded, so we just evolved into that as we were solving the two thousand year old conflict between the Arabs & the Jews.

Yes, there are many very liberal people here and peace & love seem to be de rigueur but they do seem to have a
damn near psychotic violent streak against people that have avatars that are hard on the eyes and have birds in the center of them.

I'm just sayin....
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 04:38
Originally posted by CPicard

Originally posted by lazland

Left - bloody ToriesAngry

And just to get a thumbs down from my mate, Snow Dog, Welsh independence.


And what about English independance? Cry
What about Wessex independance?
 
What about Danelaw independance?
 
What about Mercia independance?
 
What about Independance for Albion?
 
Boundaries are just lines on a map, people migrate and intermarry, blood dilutes and the genes pool diversifies, no one is truly native and indigenous no matter where they live or where they come from (all the peoples of Britain come from somewhere else). I live in southern Kingdom of Wessex, I was born in the Saxon Kingdom of Ēastseaxe to the east, yet I am a blue-eyed blond of Viking heritage, my family roots are from the northern Kingdom of Eoforwic (called Jrvk by the Danes), I consider myself to be British first and European second, though at times I think I live in the 51st State of the Union (would you like fries with that?), in reality I am just a lowly Human Being living on a lump of rock orbiting a nondescript star in a backwater of a spiral galaxy adrift in the vastness of the Universe. Which part of that do I need to be independent of?
 
Pull down the borders, tear up treaties, allow people to move freely without the constraints of arbitrary land-divisions and the political and religious dissection of continents into artificial countries and proclaimed nations.
 
Let's occupy Planet Earth and make a World fit for Humans.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...yeah, I'm a lefty. Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 04:53
Originally posted by lazland

Left - bloody ToriesAngry

And just to get a thumbs down from my mate, Snow Dog, Welsh independence.

I won't down thumb you. At least you live in Wales. But you are correct. I am definitely against.Wink
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 05:55
@Dean: I was just joking! Remember, I'm French! 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PyramidMeetsTheEye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 06:03
thanks for the info Wink will change the avatar to something more nice,is this better? When i joined the forum there were only an option for 64-64 pixels so yea the image got a bit muddy. 
Ok back to topic,hm so the chaps name on this forum is frippism is this correct? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 06:28
Originally posted by CPicard

@Dean: I was just joking! Remember, I'm French! 
I know Evil Smile
 
 
There is nothing like stretching a joke to see how far you can take it before it breaks, the French are after all, quite British, or the British quite French - we are only separated by 10 leagues (lieue ancienne) of salty water and have in the course of history shared each others lands and peoples; the Bretons, Celts and Normans can be found on both sides of La Manche; what is custard to us and crme anglaise to you is still just eggs, milk and sugar no matter what it is called and it tastes the same wherever it is made. So we wave our flags of red, white and blue along the boulevards and we're not so different.
 
Big smile


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 07:16
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by CPicard

Originally posted by lazland

Left - bloody ToriesAngry

And just to get a thumbs down from my mate, Snow Dog, Welsh independence.


And what about English independance? Cry
What about Wessex independance?
 
What about Danelaw independance?
 
What about Mercia independance?
 
What about Independance for Albion?
 
Boundaries are just lines on a map, people migrate and intermarry, blood dilutes and the genes pool diversifies, no one is truly native and indigenous no matter where they live or where they come from (all the peoples of Britain come from somewhere else). I live in southern Kingdom of Wessex, I was born in the Saxon Kingdom of Ēastseaxe to the east, yet I am a blue-eyed blond of Viking heritage, my family roots are from the northern Kingdom of Eoforwic (called Jrvk by the Danes), I consider myself to be British first and European second, though at times I think I live in the 51st State of the Union (would you like fries with that?), in reality I am just a lowly Human Being living on a lump of rock orbiting a nondescript star in a backwater of a spiral galaxy adrift in the vastness of the Universe. Which part of that do I need to be independent of?
 
Pull down the borders, tear up treaties, allow people to move freely without the constraints of arbitrary land-divisions and the political and religious dissection of continents into artificial countries and proclaimed nations.
 
Let's occupy Planet Earth and make a World fit for Humans.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...yeah, I'm a Libertarian. Wink


Fixed.  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 07:29
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Dean

 
...yeah, I'm a Liberal. Wink


Fixed.  Tongue
Fixed. Wink
 
I am a social liberal if you want to be picky. Tongue


Edited by Dean - April 09 2012 at 07:30


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 07:36
Originally posted by stonebeard

I don't know about politics much, but I do know I never really agreed with Hitler, if that's any help.
Some people do though.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 08:13
Originally posted by PyramidMeetsTheEye

thanks for the info Wink will change the avatar to something more nice,is this better? When i joined the forum there were only an option for 64-64 pixels so yea the image got a bit muddy. 
Ok back to topic,hm so the chaps name on this forum is frippism is this correct? 
 
Dude!
 
Your new Avatar is awesome!!!!!
 
I do think it may be the coolset one here that I have seen, no lie.
 
Where did you get that picture?
 
Yeah frippism is the guy, though he appears to be a bit "youngish" in his prog tastes, not a lad to have tea with over a session of Tales From Topographic Oceans.Wink
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 08:20
Originally posted by Dean

 
What about Mercia independance?
 
 
Mercia???
 
In Mercia?! The coconut's tropical!

King Arthur: What do you mean?

1st soldier: Well, this is a temperate zone.

 
King Arthur: The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the plover may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land?

1st soldier: Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

 
King Arthur: Not at all. They could be carried.

1st soldier: What? A swallow carrying a coconut?

King Arthur: It could grip it by the husk!

1st soldier: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.

King Arthur: Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here?

1st soldier: Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

King Arthur: Please!

1st soldier: Am I right?


Edited by dennismoore - April 09 2012 at 12:15
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 08:52
Originally posted by dennismoore

Originally posted by PyramidMeetsTheEye

thanks for the info Wink will change the avatar to something more nice,is this better? When i joined the forum there were only an option for 64-64 pixels so yea the image got a bit muddy. 
Ok back to topic,hm so the chaps name on this forum is frippism is this correct? 
 
Dude!
 
Your new Avatar is awesome!!!!!
 
I do think it may be the coolset one here that I have seen, no lie.
 
Where did you get that picture?
 
Yeah frippism is the guy, though he appears to be a bit "youngish" in his prog tastes, not a lad to have tea with over a session of Tales From Topographic Oceans.Wink

Hey! Well yeah I'm not TFTO's biggest fan, but I love Yes.
The only problem I have with a lot of today's symph/neo blaaa is that I've heard stuff along the lines of it so many times. The tunes aren't the problem, it's just the retro-sound.

But yeah most of the stuff I really listen to is 00s and beyond. But the fact that a thing is old doesn't mean its bad! If a thing is bad, then it's bad.
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 10:20
Originally posted by frippism

Hey! Well yeah I'm not TFTO's biggest fan, but I love Yes.
The only problem I have with a lot of today's symph/neo blaaa is that I've heard stuff along the lines of it so many times. The tunes aren't the problem, it's just the retro-sound.

But yeah most of the stuff I really listen to is 00s and beyond. But the fact that a thing is old doesn't mean its bad! If a thing is bad, then it's bad.
 
Ok, dude, just don't tell me that you prefer Trevor Rabin, over classic YES. or you and I will make the Arabs & Jews
look like giddy school girls at a Brintney Spears concert. Wink
 
I agree with what you say about hearing the same stuff, though I don't think it is applied consistently by people.
There is nothing good about an imitation in any decade or genre, but I do think that symphonic prog has been crucified by the younger generation while that same generation fails to see all the "influences" and "borrowing of ideas" in their music.  Each generation needs to have their music which they can declare "undeniably hip" while they proudly trash prior generations of music cause that is how it works through the generations in pop culture.  I think classic prog is exceptional, not because it came from my generation, but because it was basically the first to smash that generational formula.  Classic prog said, "we are gonna have a harp or bagpipes or a flute cause it works and not because some real popular rocker just did it".  Some newer stuff is good, but highly derivative as well.  I don't think an even standard gets applied to all music.
 
Example:
 
Glass Hammer - If gets dismissed around here for being considered a copy of YES.  I don't see that and I would despise
a copy of YES such as the horribly derivative Starcastle.
 
Yet, many metal bands make the top 2 or 3 of the year record here on PA.  I listen to these prog metal recordes and it is clear they are playing the same head bobbing down strumming on the guitar of a thousand metal bands before!
 
By the way...  Have you ever heard The Flower Kings - The Chicken Farmer Song?


Edited by dennismoore - April 09 2012 at 11:07
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 10:49
Originally posted by dennismoore


Ok, dude, just don't tell me that you prefer Trevor Rabin, over classic YES. or you and I will make the Arabs & Jews
look like giddy school girls at a Brintney Spears concert. Wink

LOL. No. nononononono
 
Originally posted by dennismoore

I agree with what you say about hearing the same stuff, though I don't think it is applied consistently by people. There is nothing good about an imitation in any decade or genre, but I do think that symphonic prog has been crucified by the younger generation while that same generation fails to see all the "influences" and "borrowing of ideas" in their music.  Each generation needs to have their music which they can declare "undeniably hip" while they proudly trash prior generations of music cause that is how it works through the generations in pop culture.  I think classic prog is exceptional, not because it came from my generation, but because it was basically the first to smash that generational formula.  Classic prog said, "we are gonna have a harp or bagpipes or a flute cause it works and not because some real popular rocker just did it".  Some newer stuff is good, but highly derivatave as well.  I don't think an even standard gets applied to all music.

I have nothing against symphonic, but I will say that yes, the stuff is somewhat more derivative. I don't mind influences- what the f**k am I saying? All music is influences! There's no real thing as creativity in art. It's the taking of one's ideas and morphing them into a shape that is yours.

With that, I feel as if an interesting artist can the sound his own angle to the music he has absorbed. I feel that such bands such as the Flower Kings, and Glass Hammer (though my exposure to Glass Hammer is very limited and it's not very fair of me to judge them just yet), is that for me they don't offer a new look of things. I can think of an example- Beardfish are pretty retro-sounding, but I feel like they've real added their own twist with the arrangements, the variety, and the production. I just don't feel it with many other symph bands.
 

Originally posted by dennismoore

Yet, many metal bands make the top 2 or 3 of the year record here on PA.  I listen to these prog metal recordes and it is clear they are playing the same head bobbing down strumming on the guitar of a thousand metal bands before!

There's so much derivative metal it's not even funny- but yet it remains when of the more open minded, and boundary pushing cultures/genres today- particularly when it comes to experimental metal.
 
Originally posted by dennismoore

By the way...  Have you ever heard The Flower Kings - The Chicken Farmer Song?
 
I just did- pretty good tune. But again- didn't blow my mind :)



Edited by frippism - April 09 2012 at 10:50
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2012 at 12:11
Originally posted by frippism


I have nothing against symphonic, but I will say that yes, the stuff is somewhat more derivative. I don't mind influences- what the f**k am I saying? All music is influences! There's no real thing as creativity in art. It's the taking of one's ideas and morphing them into a shape that is yours. 

 
Originally posted by dennismoore

By the way...  Have you ever heard The Flower Kings - The Chicken Farmer Song?
 
I just did- pretty good tune. But again- didn't blow my mind :)

 
Yeah, that is my only argument I have with people here when they criticize a band for not being original.  All artists
create from how other artists have already influenced them! Though some bands go too far like Starcastle did by trying to imitate YES, the result showed it.
 
A warning about Glass Hammer, older works of theirs did seem a bit copy-catish.  Glass Hammer - If is the one to check out if you are even remotely so inclined. It is full of high-pitched vocals, if that puts you off then you still have all those deep groans on your Beardfish records. Smile
 
Beardfish to me suffers from cut & paste fatigue. Back in the day, an artist needed to compose music by actually writing it from nothing.  Now with all the cut & paste digitizers and samplers it is so easy for anybody to "staple" together a piece of music.  Beardfish throws in so many diferent styles that I am not sure go together if you sat down and wrote it out.  But with modern techniques to "borrow" so much into a song, that is the result.  I guess if I grew up in that generation I would be more friendly to the cut & paste motif.  I learned music with a guitar in my lap and a piano at my fingertips.  Not all the "groove boxes" and samplers that musicians have today. Nothing wrong with that, just a generational thing.
 
Bill Bruford left YES and complained that CTTE was a nightmare to make.  He said YES fought "over every single note".
Well I dare say that is why to this day, Close To The Edge is a masterpiece and is being discovered by generation after generation.  Weightlifters say:  "No Pain  - No Gain!" I don't think the current cut & pasting generation of music will have quite a lasting legacy, obviously we'll see.. Perghaps I am just some old crumudgen, that thought has occured to me.
 
Very kind of you to give The Chicken Farmer Song a listen. Tongue  It is a light tune with sweet harmonies and is just fun.
 
That is why I use that song as an example.  Prog music and prog bands don't need to make every piece an epic
with a thousand complex intervals.  Sometimes its nice to just have fun with a song. The Chicken Farmer Song is an example of a lighter & simpler song but still done proggishly.  A nice balance of progressive music and simple musical enjoyment.
 


Edited by dennismoore - April 09 2012 at 12:13
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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