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Prog & Politics

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Poll Question: I love prog, and consider myself to be:
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frippism View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog & Politics
    Posted: April 05 2012 at 10:29
Originally posted by CPicard

Extreme Center. 

Damn you took mine. I define myself as a center extremist. In a way I oppose political "leanings" because when you define yourself as something, your thinking might be warped by your self-definition. A la "I think this, but I'm this, therefore I will find a reason to think like that". 

The left-right situation here in Israel is f**king mental. On the one hand, we have the left wingers- stereo-typically, European descent, High class, doctors and lawyers and Hi-tech people, who believe in the return of the 1967 territories to the Palestinians and believe in a 2 state solution- a Jewish and an Arab state.

The right wingers here are- stereo-typically, Middle Eastern, lower class- who work in less "exclusive jobs" and such. They on the other hand will usually (and I use "usually" very loosely here)- believe in more "aggressive" approaches to the "Israeli-Palestinian" conflict. 

Now as you might have seen, the situation of what defines left or right barely actually has anything to do with something other than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and to a lesser extent these days- relations with our Arab neighboring countries.

There's barely enough attention by the general public to Israel's economic policies. In my opinion we are on the verge of "hyper-capitalism"- with companies and "the 1%" (blaaa) gaining worrying influence over the gov't. We are on the verge of neglecting our economic policies completely. It comes to the situation that the right wingers will vote to a right-wing party, who has right-wing economic policies, just because of the party's security policy. This of course applies to the left wingers as well. 

So what we have now is a country in constant opposition to our governments economic policy and to a lesser extent against the country's security policy. It's a madhouse.

Me? On the one hand, I support the 2 state solution (though, there still lies the question of whether the Palestinian state will consist of both Gaza and the West Bank (even though I have family in the West Bank). There are 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. There are 7.5 million Israelis (including Jews- about 6.5 million, and 1 million Arab-Israelis). By 2050 there will be an Arab majority in Israel and the occupied territories. Apart of course, from the humane crimes committed by the Israeli occupation (not that I'm in any way excusing the acts of the Palestinian gov't, the Hamas, or any terrorist or terrorist group in the occupied territories. Some of the acts such as rockets, terrorist bombings, and kidnapping have shown that the Palestinians are just as capable at committing monstrous acts), the demographic situation by 2050 will not allow the continuation of a Jewish state (which in essence is why any Jews are here, really) Israel without literal apartheid-like laws which will abstain Israel its democratic nature. Moreover, it will probably result in massive economic embargoes on Israel, and one hell of a war (not that there haven't been some already.

On the other hand, I find myself on the more right-wing side when it comes to issues like the Arab spring. I found myself supporting a much more quiet change of gov't in these countries, than the direct overthrow of leaders such as Mobarak, and the future overthrow of Assad. Of course I believe all countries should be democratic- but in these countries I really don't think a democratic state can be established. With over half of Egyptians under the poverty line, I fail to see how any new parliament- particularly one filled with Muslim fundamentalists and near-fundamentalists, will be able to establish a country with proper democratic ideals. Moreover, that particularly afflicts Israel, as parties such as the Muslim Brotherhood go against the peace treaty with Israel- and I really don't want to know what happens when another war between Israel and Egypt happens.

On the economic side, currently I'm on the left-center side of things. Each economic policy and its time and place. The over-capitalization of Israel has massively hurt the middle class and has now caused a major rift between the high class and low class- with the middle class withering. 

Bla bla in these situations the gov't should help the people get the proper support in order to diminish the class differences. To do so, they must tax the rich, and establish further social aid to the people in the lower classes. Bla.

Yeahhhhhhhhhh.... 
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 10:51
Just saw that a rocket hit close to Southern Israeli city, Eilat. The rocket was shot from the Egyptian border. 

f**k
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 10:57
Originally posted by CPicard

Originally posted by PyramidMeetsTheEye

dude you forgot vladimir ilich lenning,leon trotsky and few other bolshevists  that i cant remember now.  


Who? vladimir ilich lemming? Was he a suicidal mammal?

LOL

Lenning.... Pyramid, you have single-handedly turned leninism into a verb.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 11:05
You libertarians hijack every thread remotely related to politics. It's so annoying. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 11:07
Yes it's disgusting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote manofmystery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 11:24
Rabble rabble rabble!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 14:40
Originally posted by manofmystery

Rabble rabble rabble!
Communism
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 15:09
Originally posted by jude111

No, you won't be the next Greece. Greece may be broke, but they still have the Acropolis, the Parthenon, countless ancient temples and architectural wonders of the world. Not to mention stunning islands like Santorini, Mykonos, Nisyros, etc. America will have broken down gas stations, collapsing Wall Marts, and rusting cars on cracked highways. If only the US could be the next Greece, I would return. LOLBig smile
 
As an American I take great exception to this:
 
Those of us proud residents of The Corporate States of America have:
 
The Bay City Rollers (they are gettin a bit old, now...)Wink
Britney Spears
The World's Number 1 exporter of used cardboard
A tiny group of billionaires who are getting exponentially more wealthy while millions more Americans enter poverty.
Two major failed wars which prices of over 1.5 trillion dollars have been passed on to working class American's children.
The civilized world's largest numerical & per capita number of imprisoned citizens
The greatest failed war ever (The ongoing war on drugs)
A new found relgious fanaticism & intolerance that now dominates one major political party.
Best TV show even invented - American Idol
Sarah Palin
World's Greatest Journalists - Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity
A failing health care system...
 
Of all these great things, admit it, you non-Americans are just jealous!   Ha!  Gotcha!  Approve
 
 
Rush Limbaugh is right, all you anti-American euros & communists wanna destroy our great way of life.


Edited by dennismoore - April 05 2012 at 20:39
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 15:51
Originally posted by frippism

In a way I oppose political "leanings" because when you define yourself as something, your thinking might be warped by your self-definition. A la "I think this, but I'm this, therefore I will find a reason to think like that". 

The left-right situation here in Israel is f**king mental. On the one hand, we have the left wingers- stereo-typically, European descent, High class, doctors and lawyers and Hi-tech people, who believe in the return of the 1967 territories to the Palestinians and believe in a 2 state solution- a Jewish and an Arab state.

The right wingers here are- stereo-typically, Middle Eastern, lower class- who work in less "exclusive jobs" and such. They on the other hand will usually (and I use "usually" very loosely here)- believe in more "aggressive" approaches to the "Israeli-Palestinian" conflict. 

-edit-

On the economic side, currently I'm on the left-center side of things. Each economic policy and its time and place. The over-capitalization of Israel has massively hurt the middle class and has now caused a major rift between the high class and low class- with the middle class withering. 

Bla bla in these situations the gov't should help the people get the proper support in order to diminish the class differences. To do so, they must tax the rich, and establish further social aid to the people in the lower classes. Bla.
 
 
Dear very scary looking Robert Fripp-type person,
 
I read your entire post and must say you have a unique understaning of the complexity of things, Yes, human relations/situations are quite involved and I am not sure if our current system of polarized politics (left-right or democrat-republican) is up for the task of addressing any of this.
 
For me, I am very conservative, I want to conserve our resources and conserve human rights, conserve American freedoms and raise my child how I see fit, Yet I have nothing in common with the USA's modern Conservative Party who want none of these things, My point is: labels like conservative or liberal are worthless and have become a rallying point for peddlers of deceit and discrimination.
 
The rich and powerful use these labels to control politicians to turn each of us against one another while they make billions on wars and laws to benefit only large conglomerates.
 
As far as this topic, this forum, at least for Americans, logically(not my opinion) should be heavily tilted to the liberal side, simply because of prog music and the bands that make it.
 
RUSH (those Canadian heroes) This will not be the preferred band of Sarah Palin or Rick Santorum(running for US President) or Rush Limbaugh or any GOP conservative really, Rush is into "freewill", Conservative USA is about installing a particular type of Christianity and controlling how people act, reproduce, and worship & marry.
 
YES - Uh I doubt the typical American Conservative is a big Jon Anderson peace & love fan.
 
Pink Floyd - I can safely predict that Pink Floyd - Animals will not be played at the 2012 GOP Convention.Wink
 
Now if this were a Country-Western Forum, I would think the liberals or Democrats would be rare and conservates or Republicans would dominate.
 
@frippism: Having observed the Arab-Israeli conflict since the late 1960's I do hope & pray that one day you and your neighbors will have peace.  It would be a blessing if that could happen in our lifetime!Smile
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 16:34
Originally posted by dennismoore


 Dear very scary looking Robert Fripp-type person,

That's Tim Smith of Cardiacs in the pic :).
 
Originally posted by dennismoore

I read your entire post
thank you
Originally posted by dennismoore

and must say you have a unique understaning of the complexity of things, Yes, human relations/situations are quite involved and I am not sure if our current system of polarized politics (left-right or democrat-republican) is up for the task of addressing any of this.
 
For me, I am very conservative, I want to conserve our resources and conserve human rights, conserve American freedoms and raise my child how I see fit, Yet I have nothing in common with the USA's modern Conservative Party who want none of these things, My point is: labels like conservative or liberal are worthless and have become a rallying point for peddlers of deceit and discrimination.

Agreed- these labels are as stupid as they are dangerous. 
You sound more like the Zappa type of conservative. That's a compliment by the way!
 
Originally posted by dennismoore

The rich and powerful use these labels to control politicians to turn each of us against one another while they make billions on wars and laws to benefit only large conglomerates.
 
As far as this topic, this forum, at least for Americans, logically(not my opinion) should be heavily tilted to the liberal side, simply because of prog music and the bands that make it.

Probably true for non-Americans as well :).
 

 
Originally posted by dennismoore

@frippism: Having observed the Arab-Israeli conflict since the late 1960's I do hope & pray that one day you and your neighbors will have peace.  It would be a blessing if that could happen in our lifetime!Smile

Thanks! I really do wonder how it will turn out. 

Just to shower this whole ordeal with more problems, the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are two separated territories from each other can only increase the chances 3 states (If we all just look back to when East Pakistan and West Pakistan had a civil war where rockets were flying over India. East Pakistan is now Bangladesh), and that's fine, as long as there's no civil war with rockets flying over Israel and such. 

But hey. There's hope. Maybe.  
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 16:52
Originally posted by dennismoore

Originally posted by jude111

No, you won't be the next Greece. Greece may be broke, but they still have the Acropolis, the Parthenon, countless ancient temples and architectural wonders of the world. Not to mention stunning islands like Santorini, Mykonos, Nisyros, etc. America will have broken down gas stations, collapsing Wall Marts, and rusting cars on cracked highways. If only the US could be the next Greece, I would return. LOLBig smile
 
As an American I take great exceptioon to this:
 
Those of us proud residents of The Corporate States of America have:
 
The Bay City Rollers (they are gettin a bit old, now...)Wink
Britney Spears
The World's Number 1 exporter of used cardboard
A tiny group of billionaires who are getting exponentially more wealthy while millions more Americans enter poverty.
Two major failed wars which prices of over 1.5 trillion dollars have been passed on to working class American's children.
The civilized world's largest numerical & per capita number of imprisoned citizens
The greatest failed war ever (The ongoing war on drugs)
A new found relgious fanaticism & intolerance that now dominates one major political party.
Best TV show even invented - American Idol
Sarah Palin
World's Greatest Journalists - Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity
A failing health care system...
 
Of all these great things, admit it, you non-Americans are just jealous!   Ha!  Gotcha!  Approve
 
 
Rush Limbaugh is right, all you anti-American euros & communists wanna destroy our great way of life.
 
Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?
 
 
And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing Confused
Help me I'm falling!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 17:00
^People paid to see these clowns on stage?
They look like if they stole some stuff in the Munchkins' wardrobe and barely adapt it to their size.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 18:49
Originally posted by CPicard

Originally posted by PyramidMeetsTheEye

dude you forgot vladimir ilich lenning,leon trotsky and few other bolshevists  that i cant remember now.  


Who? vladimir ilich lemming? Was he a suicidal mammal?


LOL



I also believe in mandatory gay marriage.

That's how f**king liberal I am, see it? You see how liberal I am? You other people are posers.





Edited by JJLehto - April 05 2012 at 18:51
"It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CCVP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 19:07
I'm a centerist myself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 20:54
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage

 
Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?
 
 
And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing Confused


Dear Casa De Queso,

I just have one word for you:

S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y      S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y    S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y       LOL

I was felling bad for all the pop garbage US record companies have spewed, then I remembered
you lot in the United Kingdom, in one fell swoop infected Planet Earth, with the worst plague man has ever seen....

Yes, that's right, you got it:    The  Spice   Girls   Confused    Confused     Confused

And then to show you still have it, you doubled down with:

Lady Gaga    Dead    Dead     Dead


Yeah that Simon Cowpie dude is b*****d spawn of some rich English Lord, I read...  You are right, you invented "Idol".Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dennismoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 21:33
Originally posted by frippism


That's Tim Smith of Cardiacs in the pic :).
 
Just to shower this whole ordeal with more problems, the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are two separated territories from each other can only increase the chances 3 states (If we all just look back to when East Pakistan and West Pakistan had a civil war where rockets were flying over India. East Pakistan is now Bangladesh), and that's fine, as long as there's no civil war with rockets flying over Israel and such.


Never heard of Tim Smith, let's google it:

"Cardiacs are an English alternative rock/psychedelic pop band formed in 1977 and led by Tim Smith. Noted for their complex, varied and intense compositional style"


Sounds like a very progressive bunch of lads.  Kudos to them.  I hope Mr. Smith recovers fully from his ailments. Smile

About the MiddleEast conflict:

As an American who has heard from our politicians why we need to give billions to Israel and all the other countries in the world, I say, like most American's, ok. that is nice, let's see if things work out ok, well that song is now over 40 years old for me and I am at a loss, and I am worried that after so long maybe it is impossible as both sides seem to just do the same old pandering to their own peoples.  Hamas & Right-wing Israelis.

I have always thought that Israel is so small and the Arab middle east is so large, why can't other Arab nations give the Palestinians some land for their nation?  I say I am Roman Catholic to show I have no horse in this race, but I would think any Christian should first want peace, above all else.

Jerusalem itself is bitterly contested to this day by the 3 prominent Western Religions, Christianity, Islam & Judaism and they all claim the same space as their ground zero.  Seems the only rational solution there is to divide the year in three sections and give each equal time there. (If the Druids also have a claim, then give them Ground Hog Day...Wink)

For the Palestinians, well as you said they are so many and will probably out number Jews in a few years, so sharing such a small land as Israel is not possible without constant civil fighting, so...

It seems the only solution  would be for the Arab Nations to unite and give the Palestinians their own land.  Jordan & Egypt are so vast, for the sake of peace for their own Arab peoples and the world it would be a small price to pay. Israel is pretty freakin tiny already, these Jews who are hated by the entire Arab world should live in an even smaller place???

Just my $02. from over here in America.

I don't see how it can work any other way.

I'm not really up for 40 more years of wars, terrorism and billions of US Tax dollars spent.






Edited by dennismoore - April 05 2012 at 21:36
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Post Options Post Options   Quote frippism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2012 at 02:24
Originally posted by dennismoore


Never heard of Tim Smith, let's google it:

"Cardiacs are an English alternative rock/psychedelic pop band formed in 1977 and led by Tim Smith. Noted for their complex, varied and intense compositional style"


Sounds like a very progressive bunch of lads.  Kudos to them.  I hope Mr. Smith recovers fully from his ailments. Smile

Any description pretty much fails with them. Let's just call them good pop music. 

Originally posted by dennismoore

 About the MiddleEast conflict:

As an American who has heard from our politicians why we need to give billions to Israel and all the other countries in the world, I say, like most American's, ok. that is nice, let's see if things work out ok, well that song is now over 40 years old for me and I am at a loss, and I am worried that after so long maybe it is impossible as both sides seem to just do the same old pandering to their own peoples.  Hamas & Right-wing Israelis.

I have always thought that Israel is so small and the Arab middle east is so large, why can't other Arab nations give the Palestinians some land for their nation?  I say I am Roman Catholic to show I have no horse in this race, but I would think any Christian should first want peace, above all else.

Jerusalem itself is bitterly contested to this day by the 3 prominent Western Religions, Christianity, Islam & Judaism and they all claim the same space as their ground zero.  Seems the only rational solution there is to divide the year in three sections and give each equal time there. (If the Druids also have a claim, then give them Ground Hog Day...Wink)

For the Palestinians, well as you said they are so many and will probably out number Jews in a few years, so sharing such a small land as Israel is not possible without constant civil fighting, so...

It seems the only solution  would be for the Arab Nations to unite and give the Palestinians their own land.  Jordan & Egypt are so vast, for the sake of peace for their own Arab peoples and the world it would be a small price to pay. Israel is pretty freakin tiny already, these Jews who are hated by the entire Arab world should live in an even smaller place???

Just my $02. from over here in America.

I don't see how it can work any other way.

I'm not really up for 40 more years of wars, terrorism and billions of US Tax dollars spent.

OK, first of all- the billions spent on Israel by the U.S. each year. Well firstly, I won't lie to you, it is more or less keeping us afloat here. I completely understand why it sucks though, I really do. The fact that I sometimes complain how picky the U.S. can be in international affairs probably makes me the world's biggest hypocrite. There is though a reason to this above the humane mission to keep the Jewish state alive. Politics! Israel, as small, silly, and almost meaningless (rightfully so) to a country a billion (approximately) miles away, but with that, having a strong ally in the Middle East is an advantage to the United States. But more than that, because of the size of the Jewish community, and more than that, the estimated power held by the Jewish community- Israel is a tool for politicians to gain the support of the Jewish community in the States. There's never just a humane, kind, "keep democracy alive!" kind of reason. So do know- that your politicians are unashamedly using Israel as a tool to get votes and develop relations with rich Jewish businessmen. Just to cheer you up as I'm sure it does.

Regarding the Arab-Palestinian situation. Well firstly, the Arab world is filled with different sects (Sunni, Shi'ite, Bedouin in Israel- well not really Arab but sorta, and more and more), which without Israel, would be pretty much at each others neck. Some already are (in Syria the Alawis lead by Assad is pretty much controlling the mass majority of Sunnis in Syria). 

In fact, Jordan is already 30-60% Palestinian (depends how you define Palestinian and who you ask). But to say the least, the Palestinians who fled, or were banished (depends what situation and who you're asking), to Jordan as war refugees weren't accepted with open arms. 

In general, countries such as Syria and Jordan, are pretty much just territories left by the British and French mandates in the area. To say there's such a thing as Syrian, or a Jordanian, in that they sure a national history and unity, is in my opinion a bit of a stretch (I'm sure there are many people who will disagree with this claim). The populations there are generally a bit of a mish-mash of different Arab sects.

With that, in sad truth, no Arab country wants to accept the Palestinians. Well it's not surprising, it would be just like if a bunch of Americans would've immigrated like crazy to Canada because of a war. While Canada will probably welcome them, it will be in hostile and unwelcoming hands- hands that won't be able to support the American refugees financially at all, and won't want to. Well it's not the same with Canada as it is in the Middle East. In the M.E. everything's a bit more problematic.

The point I'm trying to make after all this rambling, is that Palestinians won't be accepted in countries as demographically a bit crazy as the Jordan, Syria, and to a lesser extent, Egypt. It will cause a civilian uproar and the gov'ts won't do anything to actually support these refugees. 

The inconvenient truth, is that if Israel would've annexed Gaza and the West Bank in 1967, and would've more less caused the fleeing and banishing of the Palestinian populations there- we obviously wouldn't have been having this conversation, but in general the world would have stopped caring long ago, and Gaza and the West Bank could have been Israel's, and there wouldn't be a Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or at least to a much lesser extent. It took Israel 9 years to establish diplomatic relation with Germany after WWII. Humans forget, not as much as forgive. Even if the Palestinians would've insisted in fighting for the land (I'm not going to go into whose land it is, because it's pointless argument. The land is of the conquerors. It always is. The truth is that the Jews conquered Israel as much as they settled in it and developed it, and that's just what needs to be done to establish a country for people with no real land. Again, sad and unfair, but true), their struggle would've lost steam long ago.  
But a military occupation was established and we see how big of a mistake it is every day. And every day it's getting worse and every day it costs more money and strains relations between pretty much everybody. While Israel's small, it's not like the West Bank is really occupied by Jews (350,000 Jews who are considered by the U.N. as illegal settlers. Most of them are there for ideological reasons alone. There are 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank). The fact is that giving up will cause large civilian upheavals, but won't really change anything territorial-wise for a clear majority of Jewish Israelis. Israel's about the size of NJ, and the size of the stretch from the coast to the West Bank, in its narrowest point is about 2/3 the size of Manhattan. It's a tiny speck which is making way too much noise. 
So while releasing the territories will cause one hell of a mess, it's a sacrifice that in my opinion need to be done.
There be dragons
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Post Options Post Options   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2012 at 05:35
Originally posted by dennismoore

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage

 
Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?
 
 
And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing Confused


Dear Casa De Queso,

I just have one word for you:

S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y      S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y    S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y       LOL

I was felling bad for all the pop garbage US record companies have spewed, then I remembered
you lot in the United Kingdom, in one fell swoop infected Planet Earth, with the worst plague man has ever seen....

Yes, that's right, you got it:    The  Spice   Girls   Confused    Confused     Confused

And then to show you still have it, you doubled down with:

Lady Gaga    Dead    Dead     Dead


Yeah that Simon Cowpie dude is b*****d spawn of some rich English Lord, I read...  You are right, you invented "Idol".Wink
 
Denise
 
Now I know you're taking the Michael .  First of all its Friday fool.  Those Spice Girls are not by any means as bad as .....PUT THE NAME OF ANY RECENT BOY BAND HERE as you should know.  Lady Gaga is yours.  We are guilty of Simon Cowpie and for that I am SORRY truly.


Edited by akamaisondufromage - April 06 2012 at 05:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2012 at 05:44
Originally posted by JJLehto

Scottish Independence

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Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2012 at 06:55
Classical liberalism in a moderately strong leftist interpretation is how I have built my political views for the issues of today. 
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